toki pi kalama pona suli

[jan Josan]

any suggestions so far? is it understandable at all?

...li toki wawa e nimi ni:

“tenpo pini ni la, mi kama sona e jan sin. ona li, a…, li jan akesi jaki! mi ken ala kin nimi e ona kepeken nimi ante. ona li jan akesi jaki li lawa Inli pi tomo tawa telo. tenpo kama la, sina kama sona e ni: mi nimi e nimi ‘jan akesi jaki’ tawa jan ni tan seme. a! tan seme la, jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni lon mi? tenpo ala la mi ken pilin pona! jan akesi ni li jo e selo mute. ona li moku lon tomo pi esun moku mi. ona li toki e pali sina kepeken kalama suli. tenpo ale la jan mute li sike e ona li kute. tenpo mute la ona li lon ma Asija li kama sona e toki ante mute tan ma ni. taso ona li toki suli kin e sona ona pi toki Pasi. tenpo mute la ona li toki e kalama nasa wan anu tu lon anpa nena pi jan pali moku pi esun mi. jan pali li open en pine wawa e oko ona, li sona ala e toki pi jan lawa Inli. jan lawa li lukin musi li toke e nimi ni: “a! mi wile e telo nasa!” anu “a! mi wile moku e soweli sijelo seli.” sina sona e ni: mi pilin ike mute tawa jan ni. taso tenpo suno wan ike la mi en ona li toki. ona li toki e ni: “mi ken pana e sona pi toki Pasi tawa sina.” mi wile sona e ni: sona pi pali musi suli mi li pona ala pona? tan ni la mi wile kama jo e sona ona. tenpo ni la sina sona e ni: mi wile kama sona lili e toki Pasi. mi wile ken toki e pilin mi kepeken toki Pasi. taso mi wile ken ala kepeken ale e toki ni.

mi kama sona pona e toki Pasi. mi jo ala e toki awen pi toki Pasi. taso jan lawa Inli li toki e ni: jan li wile kama sona e toki sin la, ona li toki mute kepeken toki ni. mi mute li tawa lon nasin li toki kepeken e toki Pasi taso. mi mute li pilin lape la, mi awen poka ona lon tomo moku. ona li sitelen mute e linja sike lili pi toki Pasi. tenpo sike suno wan la, mi lon, kepeken nasin ni. jan lawa li toki e ni: ona li pana e sona mute tawa mi. sona mi li pona li suli. tenpo suno sike li pine la, ona li toki e ni: ona li weka. ken la ona li tawa ma Sukosi. mi sona ala e ni: ona li lon ma seme? taso mi wile e ni: ona li lon ike sama ike ona.”
...

*Pasi or Pasijan for Farsi/Persian. I don’t know which is more appropriate in toki pona:

[janKipo]

toki pi kalama pona suli
-jan Tomaso Lantopi

suno kama la mi mute li pine e lape.

or 'pini lape' or, according to another thread here, 'weka lape' or even 'kama lape ala' I'm not sure if there are subtle
differences here.
'suno kama' "next (or future) sun" aiming for "at dawn/sunrise" or "in the morning"? Maybe, 'kama suno'? Maybe all
fussiness.

mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa.

Or just 'sewi' (see 'anpa')

mi mute li pilin musi tan sona tu ni: mi moli ala; ijo ale pi tenpo suno ni li sama e ijo pi tenpo suno pini. tenpo suno wan
la mi pilin sama ni. mi lukin e lupa tomo tawa ma li kepeken e sona lili.

"I see a window (door) to the world (land, ...) and use little knowledge" I'm just not sure what is going on here. Ahah!
(looking at earlier notes) "I stare out the window in stupid abstraction" is not going to make it into tp unless you really
need it. We don't have a good "out/through the window," for some reason and I can't think of a plausible one (but we
need it), but it is more than seeing the window (indeed, more or less involves NOT seeing the window). Maybe (very)
'lukin e ma kepeken lupa tomo li pilin e ijo ala' ("and think about nothing" according to one shot at this notion).

jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi lupa tomo.
ona li jan pi toki lili. tenpo mute la ona li pali, lon poka jan ante ala.

? 'li pali wan' "works alone"? not sure this works, as yours clearly does.

ni li musi tawa mi: ona li kama jo e wawa mute.

"He gets great strength" ? The context suggests "He is greatly worked up" or some such: "agitated, excited."? 'pilin
wawa'? or some such?

mi len. mi tu li toki e ijo lili. ni li nasa tawa mi: pilin ona li ante tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi. mi ken sona pona e ni: ijo
nasa anu ijo ike li kama tawa ona. tenpo lili li tawa. mi kute e ona.

The 'lukin' = "see/watch" issue (here "hear/listen to") with a twist that the direct object (as with 'toki', 'pilin' etc.) can also
be what he says. i.e. propositional. I don't know how to sort this out.

ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e toki ni tawa mi. ona li ken toki e ni kepeken nimi lili. taso ona li
wile e ni: toki ona li lukin nasa tawa mi la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.

'mi wile pini ala e toki ona' the modal logic going on here is messy, but I think the idiom wants to say something about
voluntary action here.

mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki e ona: o toki.
ona li open e toki ona kepeken nimi ni:

or 'ona li open toki e nimi ni:'

“tenpo suli pini la mi pali mute e musi suli. mi lukin e ijo lili ale, lon insa musi suli. kepeken nasin ni la, mi kama sona e
ni en ni taso: jan musi li jo e ilo pali ale pi musi suli la, ona li pali ike. jan li sona pona e toki la, ona li pali ike, kepeken
toki ni. jan li sona lili e toki ante la, ona li ken pali e musi pona en suli, kepeken toki ante ni. mi wile ala toki e ni: mi
kama sona e sona ni kepeken nasin ike seme? taso, sona mi li pona. ni li lon: jan li sona ala e nimi ale la, jan li wile
kepeken e sona sike, e sitelen ante. sina ken musi e ni: musI suli seme li kama? o weka e nimi pi toki suli en toki sama
toki pi tenpo pini la, jan li kepeken ala e toki moli. tenpo ni la, musi suli le ken kama lon.”

I think that I am at some disadvantage here in not knowing the original (or an English trat). I'm not sure what the title led
me to think of, maybe "mystic congruences" or some such. but it has colored everything after. So that I can't see 'musi
suli' as anything but "a big joke" but then other parts don't fit so well. Let's see what I sorta have and then see if you can
set me right on it at some early point:
"A long time ago, I worked hard on a great joke (great jokes). I examined every little thing inside great jokes (I assume
'lon insa pi musi suli')Thus I learned this and only this: If a funny man has all the craft tools of a great joke(or "tools for
making a great joke" 'ilo pi pali pi musi suli'), he works badly. If a person knows a language well, he works badly in
that language. If a person knows another language slightly, he can make good and big jokes in that language. I don't
want to tell by what means I learned this wisdom. But my knowledge is good (certain, correct). This is true: if a person
doesn't know every word, he has to use circular knowledge ("approximate"? -- not good) and other writing ("pictures"?
metaphor?). You can entertain this: what great joke comes (? You can imagine?? what sorta joke result?) Throw away
the words of great languages and of languages like those of the past (not sure how to make a conditional with an
imperative antecedent) a person does not use dead languages. Now, a great joke can be born."
Not very coherent (of course, it is meant to be crazy, but still. ...)

jan J li pilin pona. ona li pilin e ni: sona ona li pona. ona li pinI e toki li pini lili e oko sina. ona li weka e ike sina. taso
ona li lukin e ni: mi sona ala e toki ona. ona li pana e a anpa, li toki wawa e nimi ni:

"gives a deep sigh"? calquey 'pana e kon pi pilin ike' maybe or something like. But I like 'pana e a' too.

“tenpo pini ni la, mi kama sona e jan sin. ona li, a…, li jan akesi jaki! mi ken ala kin nimi e ona kepeken nimi ante. ona li
jan akesi jaki li lawa Inli pi tomo tawa telo. tenpo kama la, sina kama sona e ni: mi nimi e nimi ‘jan akesi jaki’ tawa jan ni
tan seme. a! tan seme la, jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni lon mi? tenpo ala la mi ken pilin pona! jan akesi ni li jo e
selo mute. ona li moku lon tomo pi esun moku mi. ona li toki e pali sina kepeken kalama suli.

"about his job"? (he certainly didn't say his job) need an idiom

tenpo ale la jan mute li sike e ona li kute.

I'm not sure how 'sike' is going to work as a verb, does subj circle/form a circle around object or does some one make
a circle out of obj ("circle the wagons")? I think the first, as you use it, is going to be more useful.

tenpo mute la ona li lon ma Asija li kama sona e toki ante mute tan ma ni. taso ona li toki suli kin e sona ona pi toki
Pasi.

"about" again?

tenpo mute la ona li toki e kalama nasa wan anu tu lon anpa nena pi jan pali moku pi esun mi. jan pali li open en pinI
wawa e oko ona, li sona ala e toki pi jan lawa Inli.

"Often he made one or two crazy sounds under the nose of the cook (maybe 'jan pi pali moku' but not clear what
difference it makes). The worker blinked violently "(but 'en' only connects head nouns -- it says in the list -- so not
verbs, presumably. But if you use 'li open li pini' how do you show that they both take the same object? Wurra, wurra.)

jan lawa li lukin musi li toke e nimi ni: “a! mi wile e telo nasa!” anu “a! mi wile moku e soweli sijelo seli.”

"hot body-animal" ? 'sijelo soweli seli'? maybe 'wan soweli seli'?

sina sona e ni: mi pilin ike mute tawa jan ni. taso tenpo suno jan ike la mi en ona li toki.

"but on the bad human-day"?

ona li toki e ni: “mi ken pana e sona pi toki Pasi tawa sina.” mi wile sona e ni: sona pi pali [PI?] musi suli mi li pona ala
pona? tan ni la mi wile kama jo e sona ona. tenpo ni la sina sona e ni: mi wile kama sona lili e toki Pasi. mi wile ken
toki e pilin mi kepeken toki Pasi. taso mi wile ken ala kepeken ale e toki ni.

I think the 'ken' is superfluous here; that is the easiest solution to the muddle at this point: "I want/need to be unable to
use" "I don't want/need to be able to use"

mi kama sona pona e toki Pasi. mi jo ala e toki awen pi toki Pasi. taso jan lawa Inli li toki e ni: jan li wile kama sona e
toki sin la, ona li toki mute kepeken toki ni. mi mute li tawa lon nasin li toki kepeken e toki Pasi taso. mi mute li pilin
lape la, mi awen poka ona lon tomo moku. ona li sitelen mute e linja sike lili pi toki Pasi. tenpo [PI?] sike suno wan la,
mi lon, kepeken nasin ni. jan lawa li toki e ni: ona li pana e sona mute tawa mi. sona mi li pona li suli. tenpo suno sike
[?} li pinI la, ona li toki e ni: ona li weka. ken la ona li tawa ma Sukosi. mi sona ala e ni: ona li lon ma seme? taso mi
wile e ni: ona li lon ike sama ike ona.”

[jan Ote]

tenpo ni la sina sona e ni: mi wile kama sona lili e toki Pasi.
(Now) you know that I want[ed] to learn a little of Farsi language.
mi wile ken toki e pilin mi kepeken toki Pasi.
I wanted to be able to speak (about) my feelings/thoughts using Farsi. Should be rather: 'mi wile e ni: mi ken toki...'
taso mi wile ken ala kepeken ale e toki ni.
But I wanted to NOT be able to use everything (in) this language. -- ?
Is it for: `but I not wanted to be able to speak/express everything in this language'?

The text is interesting but difficult to me. I have to read it all at least once more.

[jan Josan]

thanks for the help guys.

tenpo ni la sina sona e ni: mi wile kama sona lili e toki Pasi.
(Now) you know that I want[ed] to learn a little of Farsi language.
mi wile ken toki e pilin mi kepeken toki Pasi.
I wanted to be able to speak (about) my feelings/thoughts using Farsi. Should be rather: 'mi wile e ni: mi ken toki...'

Yes, thanks. Until we get those modals sorted out.

taso mi wile ken ala kepeken ale e toki ni.
But I wanted to NOT be able to use everything (in) this language. -- ?
Is it for: `but I not wanted to be able to speak/express everything in this language'?

I think the 'ken' is superfluous here; that is the easiest solution to the muddle at this point: "I want/need to be unable to use" "I don't want/need to be able to use"

Yes, so now: "mi wile ala kepeken ale e toki ni"

or 'pini lape' or, according to another thread here, 'weka lape' or even 'kama lape ala' I'm not sure if there are subtle differences here.

I like "pini lape", but as it is the first sentence I'll stick with the conventional "pine e lape" and we can hash out "pine lape" in the modal thread.

'suno kama' "next (or future) sun" aiming for "at dawn/sunrise" or "in the morning"? Maybe, 'kama suno'? Maybe all fussiness.

I like "kama suno" --seems to avoid the kama as future-time confusion. Maybe even safer is "suno li kama la..."?

Or just 'sewi' (see 'anpa')

The original is "rise from bed" so I'll keep the supa in there, even though it would make sense without.

"I stare out the window in stupid abstraction" is not going to make it into tp unless you really
need it. We don't have a good "out/through the window," for some reason and I can't think of a plausible one (but we
need it), but it is more than seeing the window (indeed, more or less involves NOT seeing the window). Maybe (very)
'lukin e ma kepeken lupa tomo li pilin e ijo ala' ("and think about nothing" according to one shot at this notion).

I like your through the window solution. The problem with the "pilin ala" is he just was just "pilin sama ni". maybe I'll just combine them: "tenpo suno wan la mi lukin e ma kepeken lupa tomo li pilin sama ni." skip the stupid abstraction, which will never be translatable anyway.

"He gets great strength" ? The context suggests "He is greatly worked up" or some such: "agitated, excited."? 'pilin wawa'? or some such?

Good-- he isn't gathering strength, he is under it's effect. Plus with the "tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi" sentence, this wawa is explained further so I don't have to qualify it here.

The 'lukin' = "see/watch" issue (here "hear/listen to") with a twist that the direct object (as with 'toki', 'pilin' etc.) can also be what he says. i.e. propositional. I don't know how to sort this out.

Do you mean "listen to his words" vs. "listen to the sounds he makes (as he walks around or some such?) Should it be "mi kute e toki ona"?

'mi wile pini ala e toki ona' the modal logic going on here is messy, but I think the idiom wants to say something about voluntary action here.

I think I might skirt the problem by making the last sentence a direct quote so I can use the command form: taso ona li toki e nimi ni: “toki mi li lukin nasa tawa sina la, o pini ala e mi!”

I think that I am at some disadvantage here in not knowing the original (or an English trat). I'm not sure what the title led
me to think of, maybe "mystic congruences" or some such. but it has colored everything after. So that I can't see 'musi
suli' as anything but "a big joke" but then other parts don't fit so well. Let's see what I sorta have and then see if you can set me right on it at some early point:
"A long time ago, I worked hard on a great joke (great jokes). I examined every little thing inside great jokes (I assume
'lon insa pi musi suli')Thus I learned this and only this: If a funny man has all the craft tools of a great joke(or "tools for
making a great joke" 'ilo pi pali pi musi suli'), he works badly. If a person knows a language well, he works badly in
that language. If a person knows another language slightly, he can make good and big jokes in that language. I don't
want to tell by what means I learned this wisdom. But my knowledge is good (certain, correct). This is true: if a person
doesn't know every word, he has to use circular knowledge ("approximate"? -- not good) and other writing ("pictures"?
metaphor?). You can entertain this: what great joke comes (? You can imagine?? what sorta joke result?) Throw away
the words of great languages and of languages like those of the past (not sure how to make a conditional with an
imperative antecedent) a person does not use dead languages. Now, a great joke can be born."
Not very coherent (of course, it is meant to be crazy, but still. ...)

Your disadvantage is my advantage, since it's the only way I'll know if the translation carries. You got everything right except that instead of "joke" it is meant to be "art" (in his case poetry, but in this paragraph he only says art). I put the suli in there to try to distinguish "Art with a capital A" from amusement. This is really hard for me to figure out how to do, since it is a primary definition of musi, but rarely used compared to "amusing, entertaining". I thought about "musi sewi" too, which seemed problematically religious in tone. It may be a better misreading though, since so much great art has been religious. At least it wouldn't read as "holy joke". replacing "musi suli' with "musi sewi" does it make sense?

"about his job"? (he certainly didn't say his job) need an idiom

"his innumerable adventures" -- going for the "activitiy/deed" definition of pali.

taso ona li toki suli kin e sona ona pi toki Pasi.

"about" again?

Yes, "knowledge of Persian"

"Often he made one or two crazy sounds under the nose of the cook (maybe 'jan pi pali moku' but not clear what difference it makes). The worker blinked violently "(but 'en' only connects head nouns -- it says in the list -- so not verbs, presumably. But if you use 'li open li pini' how do you show that they both take the same object? Wurra, wurra.)

Ouch, I'm going to have to live with this cheat. It's "waiter" so maybe just "jan pali pi esun mi"

“a! mi wile moku e soweli sijelo seli.”

"hot body-animal" ? 'sijelo soweli seli'? maybe 'wan soweli seli'?

"Grilled steak" and I was trying to avoid the "animal food" problem of "moku soweli" but it obviously didn't work. It's not important though as long as it's clear, so maybe just "mi wile moku e soweli" or even "mi wile moku." but that one is so generic.

[janKipo]

Trying to get "grilled steak" into reasonably concise tp seems a hopeless task (I get to ten words and was not yet done with "steak", let alone "grilled"). 'e wan soweli' "a piece of critter" is a nice compromise, as is just "critter."
Thanks, this helps get me forward a bit. Sorry, but "holy joke" for 'musi sewi' would be impossible to resist (given "holy smoke").

[janMato]

Grilled steak:

mi alisa li moli e soweli pi ma suli kasi. mi seli e moku kepeken seli loje. mi moku e moku.
I hunted and killed the animal of the grass lands/plains. I cook the beef with fire. I eat grilled steak.

Two sentences to establish the topic. In the last sentence the bare head noun refers back.

If there was a picture, you could drop the topic as well. (picture of steak) mi moku e moku. This is not unlike the Egyptian determinants.

[janKipo]

Yup! when in trouble divide into several sentences.

[jan Josan]

Ah, and all just for the humorous image of a flabby and boisterous captain accidentally ordering in Persian. I'm liking the 'wan soweli' idea; wan rarely gets it's time to play head noun.

Sorry, but "holy joke" for 'musi sewi' would be impossible to resist (given "holy smoke").

Do we have any TP precedent of which talks of art in the abstract, or even poetry? I could narrow it down to poetry, or creative writing, and it would still be fine. Steaks can become kibble, but if I can't get the image of the tortured poet across, the story won't work.

[janKipo]

"Art", as you know and I often forget, is just 'musi,' "poetry" has 'toki olin' (rather specialized, I think) and 'toli pi kalama musi' (ditto). Maybe, 'musi toki' ('toki musi' is going to be jokes again, I'd bet).

[janMato]

Do we have any TP precedent of which talks of art in the abstract, or even poetry? I could narrow it down to poetry, or creative writing, and it would still be fine. Steaks can become kibble, but if I can't get the image of the tortured poet across, the story won't work.

Inventor is "mama", so creator would also be some sort of "mama"

mama nimi. word creator
mama pi nimi sin. coiner of new words, original writer, creative writer
mama pi nimi pi kalama pini sama. creator of words with the same last sounds. Poet.
mama pi nimi musi. creator of amusing words. (potentially jokes again)
mama pi kalama musi. music creator
mama pi ko kule. (artistic) painter

pali pi mama pi ko kule. Painter's work. Artwork.

mama pi nasin sin. inventor of new ways, close to the vague sense of "artist" (who may mostly spend his time at coffee houses looking cool but doesn't actually paint or sculpt) But this phrase is one of those phrases that is almost transparent, but not quite.

I'm too lazy to find prior art today. Maybe tomorrow.