Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Go read up on 'pu' by Mato. Relative clauses would be nice but increase the complexity of the grammar by at least an order of magnitude.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Because you said "I have never figured out how a virgule might be used in tp" I'll give it another go.
Okay, keeping in mind that this word shows up in the French wikipedia article, frenchy readings get priority.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/virgule[quote]
vir·gule
n. Printing
A diagonal mark ( / ) used especially to separate alternatives, as in and/or, to represent the word per, as in miles/hour, and to indicate the ends of verse lines printed continuously, as in Old King Cole/Was a merry old soul.
[French, comma, obelus, from Late Latin virgula, accentual mark, from Latin, obelus, diminutive of virga, rod.][/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma#Uses
Separation of clauses
Now I'm entering into the world of "jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona," and I'm fine with that:
mi pakala e kasi suli ale pu jo e suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW.
I agree, if these existed, the maximal depth of a sentence diagram could grow infinitely.
And if they did exist, they would behave somewhat like pi, but not entirely. I still think the analogy that pi starts a new noun phrase and pu starts a new verb phrase makes sense.
It wouldn't necessarily be followed by 2 words:
mi pakala e kasi suli pu sewi (lon sike ma tomo mi.) I cut down the trees growing in my yard
It could logically take a object
mi pakala e kasi suli pu pana e kili ike. I cut down the trees that give bad fruit.
mi lukin e jan pu moli e jan. I'm looking at men who kill men.
jan pu moli e jan li lukin tawa mi. Murderers are looking for me.
The corresponding ni chained, which are all longer than the corresponding pu version
mi pakala e kasi suli ale ni: kasi ni li jo e suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW.
mi pakala e kasi suli ni: kasi ni li sewi lon sike ma tomo mi.
mi pakala e kasi suli ni: kasi ni li pana e kili ike.
jan li moli e jan. jan ni li lukin tawa mi. I'm being sought either by murderers (or the recently slain zombies). The jan ni here co-ordinates poorly with the antecedent, which is the subject, but could be read as the subject or object of the previous sentence. pu would have helped by keeping all the info describing jan in one phrase.
The corresponding juxtapositioned
mi pakala e kasi suli ale pi suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW. I cut down all trees of a British magnitude of 6 feet. pi takes care of possession just fine. pu isn't really useful here.
mi pakala e kasi suli sewi lon sike ma tomo mi. I cut down the holy/growing/high trees around my house's land. sewi covers too much semantic ground. pu would help here nail down the sense of growing.
mi pakala e kasi suli pana ni: ona li pana e kili ike. I cut down these giving/gift trees: they give bad fruit. similarly, pana is hard to read here, since it is a prototypical verb being used as a modifier. pu would have helped.
jan moli li lukin tawa mi. I'm being sought either by dead(ly) guys. With pure juxtaposition, you can't tell if moli is to be interpreted as a static condition (dead), an ongoing action intransitive action (dying), or a transitive action (murdering). pu works better here.
Okay, keeping in mind that this word shows up in the French wikipedia article, frenchy readings get priority.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/virgule[quote]
vir·gule
n. Printing
A diagonal mark ( / ) used especially to separate alternatives, as in and/or, to represent the word per, as in miles/hour, and to indicate the ends of verse lines printed continuously, as in Old King Cole/Was a merry old soul.
[French, comma, obelus, from Late Latin virgula, accentual mark, from Latin, obelus, diminutive of virga, rod.][/quote]
Either pu is like one, some or all of the above-- or the original article was just wrong. So out that jumble of options, a comma looks most promising. So I look up Comma in wikipedia:virgule Noun, feminine (a) comma; (Maths) decimal point; à X chiffres après la ~ to X decimal places
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma#Uses
Separation of clauses
There are other uses of commas, but they aren't nearly as interesting. Joining independent clauses isn't too interesting, but starting an dependent clause is.Commas are often used to separate clauses. In English, a comma is generally used to separate a dependent clause from the independent clause if the dependent clause comes first: After I brushed the cat, I lint-rollered my clothes. (Compare I lint-rollered my clothes after I brushed the cat.) A relative clause takes commas if it is non-restrictive, as in I cut down all the trees, which were over six feet tall. (Without the comma, this would imply that only some of the trees – those over six feet tall – were cut down. Some consider the word "that" to be preferable when such a meaning is desired: "I cut down all the trees that were over six feet tall.").
Two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) or having a complementary relationship[4] may or may not be separated by commas, (snip). (snip) (snip).
The joining of two independent sentences with a comma and no conjunction (as in "It is nearly half past five, we cannot reach town before dark.") is known as a comma splice and is often considered an error in English. A comma splice should not be confused, though, with asyndeton, a literary device used for a specific effect in which coordinating conjunctions are purposely omitted.
Now I'm entering into the world of "jan nasa li wile ante e toki pona," and I'm fine with that:
mi pakala e kasi suli ale pu jo e suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW.
I agree, if these existed, the maximal depth of a sentence diagram could grow infinitely.
And if they did exist, they would behave somewhat like pi, but not entirely. I still think the analogy that pi starts a new noun phrase and pu starts a new verb phrase makes sense.
It wouldn't necessarily be followed by 2 words:
mi pakala e kasi suli pu sewi (lon sike ma tomo mi.) I cut down the trees growing in my yard
It could logically take a object
mi pakala e kasi suli pu pana e kili ike. I cut down the trees that give bad fruit.
mi lukin e jan pu moli e jan. I'm looking at men who kill men.
jan pu moli e jan li lukin tawa mi. Murderers are looking for me.
The corresponding ni chained, which are all longer than the corresponding pu version
mi pakala e kasi suli ale ni: kasi ni li jo e suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW.
mi pakala e kasi suli ni: kasi ni li sewi lon sike ma tomo mi.
mi pakala e kasi suli ni: kasi ni li pana e kili ike.
jan li moli e jan. jan ni li lukin tawa mi. I'm being sought either by murderers (or the recently slain zombies). The jan ni here co-ordinates poorly with the antecedent, which is the subject, but could be read as the subject or object of the previous sentence. pu would have helped by keeping all the info describing jan in one phrase.
The corresponding juxtapositioned
mi pakala e kasi suli ale pi suli Inli pi noka pi (nanpa) LW. I cut down all trees of a British magnitude of 6 feet. pi takes care of possession just fine. pu isn't really useful here.
mi pakala e kasi suli sewi lon sike ma tomo mi. I cut down the holy/growing/high trees around my house's land. sewi covers too much semantic ground. pu would help here nail down the sense of growing.
mi pakala e kasi suli pana ni: ona li pana e kili ike. I cut down these giving/gift trees: they give bad fruit. similarly, pana is hard to read here, since it is a prototypical verb being used as a modifier. pu would have helped.
jan moli li lukin tawa mi. I'm being sought either by dead(ly) guys. With pure juxtaposition, you can't tell if moli is to be interpreted as a static condition (dead), an ongoing action intransitive action (dying), or a transitive action (murdering). pu works better here.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
I am inclined to think the article is just wrong, since I can't see any use for any of these items: given the weak number system, it is unlikely we need a decimal point or any ratio marker and poetry lines pretty much take care of themselves (and would be ruined by a spoken or written mark). Nor do we use pounds, shillings and pence, the other major use of the virgule.
Notice that the comma sets of non-restrictive relative clauses and you want to use it for restrictive ones. Non-restrictive clauses present no problems since they are separate information and thus go naturally into separate sentences (problems of referential alignment aside).
I assume that what you want to add after 'pu' is a verb phrase, potentially a verb (with modifiers and complements as needed) + DO (when appropriate) + prepositional phrase (ditto). In short, another whole sentence less the subject (and 'li' which might yet turn up in conjoined predicates), which is supplied by the noun before 'pu'. Assuming 'li' does not occur, this makes few problems for a subject noun, since the 'li' puts and end to that slot. As a DO, there is the problem of whether the next DO is part of the relative clause or another parallel to its head. And a similar problem arises about whether the PP is in the relative clause or in the main clause. This latter arises also with 'pu' clauses in the noun part of PPs. For noun complements, both problems arise again.
That being said, I do think that we need to deal with the situations that restrictive relative clauses are designed to meet, namely narrowing the range of general words for a particular context, where the narrowing cannot be handled easily by adjective style modifiers, The obvious solution, aside from recreating restrictive relative clauses, is to do the restriction first and then take that up: 'waso li tawa noku taso. waso ni li ...'. Perhaps 'waso' needs to be explicitly modified to make clear that on some birds are meant.
Notice that the comma sets of non-restrictive relative clauses and you want to use it for restrictive ones. Non-restrictive clauses present no problems since they are separate information and thus go naturally into separate sentences (problems of referential alignment aside).
I assume that what you want to add after 'pu' is a verb phrase, potentially a verb (with modifiers and complements as needed) + DO (when appropriate) + prepositional phrase (ditto). In short, another whole sentence less the subject (and 'li' which might yet turn up in conjoined predicates), which is supplied by the noun before 'pu'. Assuming 'li' does not occur, this makes few problems for a subject noun, since the 'li' puts and end to that slot. As a DO, there is the problem of whether the next DO is part of the relative clause or another parallel to its head. And a similar problem arises about whether the PP is in the relative clause or in the main clause. This latter arises also with 'pu' clauses in the noun part of PPs. For noun complements, both problems arise again.
That being said, I do think that we need to deal with the situations that restrictive relative clauses are designed to meet, namely narrowing the range of general words for a particular context, where the narrowing cannot be handled easily by adjective style modifiers, The obvious solution, aside from recreating restrictive relative clauses, is to do the restriction first and then take that up: 'waso li tawa noku taso. waso ni li ...'. Perhaps 'waso' needs to be explicitly modified to make clear that on some birds are meant.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Is there any way to make verbs that are compound words? If not, how are new verbs made in Toki Pona?
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Anyone can coin a new new verb phrase. No one can coin a new basic verb (except jan Sonja and even then, it's iffy if the community will use the word very enthusiastically, being that the whole point of TP is to try to speak with a remarkably small number of words)oligo wrote:Is there any way to make verbs that are compound words? If not, how are new verbs made in Toki Pona?
Compound words have been discussed before. All things that act and look like compound words need to be internally grammatically correct, like "jack-in-the-box", "chemin-de-fer", etc.
The verb phrase has to look like this:
li modal* [ala] verb [ala | adverb*] [pi noun modifier] ... then comes an optional e phrase.
* means several
[] means optional
| means or
There are only about five potential modals, e.g. tawa kama awen ken lukin, and I forget the others
The adverb is the vast majority of the time something like "ike, wawa, suli, lili" and rarely something else
The pi phrase in a verb phrase is legal, but no one knows what it might mean & almost never used.
Verb phrases that look exactly like prepositional phrases and can be followed by e phrases, usually tawa/lon (move to/fasten to)
li PP ... optional e phrase.
These are in use, but are kind of less common and advanced toki pona.
li verb unmarked-noun-complement
The canonical example is kama sona. In the official word list, people knew that this was different and put kama it's own category.
kama sona can be extended some
..li pana sona e ni... to question something.
I don't really like unmarked noun complements, but in the case of kama, it's cannon, and in some other cases, there isn't a good solution, in part because of the small number of particles and prepositions available.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
'tawa' is mot a modal, but'open and 'pini'' are, 'lukin'' and 'alasa' are iffy.
Pp as vp are common, only the transitive forms are rare. 'lon' and 'tan' are also common, and 'sama'
'kama sona' is modal+verb., not a noun complement
Pp as vp are common, only the transitive forms are rare. 'lon' and 'tan' are also common, and 'sama'
'kama sona' is modal+verb., not a noun complement
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
I just don't feel like I understand the grammar better by calling nominal or adjective predicates and prepositional predicates both "verb phrases." They're different things, but I can't think of suitable examples at the moment.janKipo wrote:Pp as vp are common, only the transitive forms are rare.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Nothing special here; we need a word to cover the slot and VP is traditional. It doesn't matter much in tp, since any content word can go there (even with 'e') and so often have verby behavior at that point. I suppose we could call the lot Predicate, if the verb part is objectionable, but that seems odd in the transitive cases (witness Lojban's constant search for the right word). Call them Slot 2, then.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
The prep phrase with DO is an oddity-- it works like an idiom.janKipo wrote:Nothing special here; we need a word to cover the slot and VP is traditional. It doesn't matter much in tp, since any content word can go there (even with 'e') and so often have verby behavior at that point. I suppose we could call the lot Predicate, if the verb part is objectionable, but that seems odd in the transitive cases (witness Lojban's constant search for the right word). Call them Slot 2, then.
The fruit is red. The fruit reddens the item. Well, I guess so. There are languages that treat all their adjectives as verbs, so I guess there is a relationship.
kili li loje. -> kili li loje e ijo.
Man is an animal. The man "animals" the fish. Huh? This just doesn't work. Therefore, me-thinks, predicates are a different beast.
jan li soweli -> jan li soweli e kala.
As for jargon, my personal preference is to try to use jargon that I've found in field linguistics text books or on wikipedia first, and if that doesn't fit, then in tp, li-phrase, pi-phrase, e-phrase are descriptive enough without committing to any particular views about how the grammar works.
I'm skpetical when I read about conlang that describe their language using invented taxonomies, I think people are too quick to image that their conlang is *so* special that nothing in the world act like that, even though it's just the same stuff one finds in any of a number of natural languages.
Re: Are there any words you've found yourself wanting?
Ouch! As the oldest living Loglan/Lojbanist (I think), that hurts -- although I do keep trying (for 35 years now) to get them back to standard terminology. But 55 years of (mis)usage is hard to overcome. On the other hand, 'li' structure', 'la' structure and so on are perhaps better for tp than the standard stuff - but we need something for the subject and final PPs.
PPs with 'e' aren't idiomatic, merely awkward (usually); they are prefectly regular. 'pilin ike' is idiomatic (until I get the spanner into the works). One problem is the variety of possible readings of the transitive derivatives. The man who declared that the whale was really a mammal animaled a fish as much as the person who threw a cow to the piranhas or the magician who turned a catfish into a cat. The occasion for using these expressions just hasn't arisen yet -- but tp is ready.
PPs with 'e' aren't idiomatic, merely awkward (usually); they are prefectly regular. 'pilin ike' is idiomatic (until I get the spanner into the works). One problem is the variety of possible readings of the transitive derivatives. The man who declared that the whale was really a mammal animaled a fish as much as the person who threw a cow to the piranhas or the magician who turned a catfish into a cat. The occasion for using these expressions just hasn't arisen yet -- but tp is ready.