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Proposed revision to Chinese character set - Toki Pona Forums

Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
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enervation
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Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:51 pm

Hey everyone!

I don't know much Toki Pona, but as I was looking through , I'd like to suggest an alternative character set that more closely matches the meaning of the characters in modern Mandarin Chinese.

ante: 变 (change) → 异 (different, differ)
e: 把→着. The way 把 is used in Chinese is noun + 把 + direct object + verb, and it feels confusing to read it as noun + verb + 把 + direct object as in Toki Pona. It feels more natural to read e as 着, which is often used as noun + verb + 着 + direct object. It does however extraneously convey a sort of progressive tense.
en: 又→和. Connecting nouns is basically the dictionary definition of 和, whereas 又 is used as a correlative conjunction for adjective sand clauses.
esun: 市, same as the Japanese transcription. I'm not sure why a hanzi character isn't provided for this.
ijo: 事→物, as in Japanese. 事 is more about abstract things like tasks.
ike: 坏 (huài) is more commonly used in Mandarin, but the current 歹 (dǎi) will probably be understood fine, and is simpler to write.
ilo: 匕 (spoon, dagger) → 具 (tool), as in Japanese
kama: the current 到 isn't a great match, but I can't think of anything better
kasi: 木→植. 木 is about wood specifically, while 植 means plant.
kulupu: both 组 and 群 (jp) are fine, though they only really mean group and don't evoke society or communal. 社 (shè) can mean both society and group, so that might be closer.
kute: 耳 (ear) → 听 (to hear, listening)
la: 喇→啦. Both are just phonetic transcriptions, but 啦 is more commonly used.
lape: 觉 can also mean to feel/think, so I think 眠 (as in Japanese) is better.
~~lete: 冰 (ice, cold) → 冷 (cold)~~ nvm I think 冰 is better because it can capture lete's meaning of "to chill"
li: 哩 (phonetic transcription of li) → 又, which can be used correlatively as noun + 又 + verb + 又 + verb, or as noun + 又 + verb, which adds the meaning of also.
linja: 糸 (fine silk) → 线 (string, cord)
~~lipu: 叶 (tree leaf, page) → 纸 (paper) or 页 (page, classifier for pages or sheets)~~ 叶 is fine
mani: 元 (Chinese currency unit, original) → 钱 (money)
moku: 菜 (food, vegetables) → 食 (food, to eat). Using 菜 as a verb would be ridiculous.
mu: 吽 (roar of an animal, bellow of rage) → 咪 or 喵 (meow)
mute: 大 (big) → 多 (many, much)
namako: (none currently) → 余 (extra, surplus, remnant)
nanpa: 个 (classifier, individual) → 数 (number) or 第 (forms ordinal numbers, but before the number)
o: 令 (to command, to cause someone to do something) → 哎 (āi, hey, a call to get someone's attention). Another possibility is 请, which means please, or to ask someone to do something.
pakala: 打 (hit) → 破 (to break, to damage)
pali: 工 (work, noun only) → 作 (work, to do)
palisa: 支 (to support, raise, classifier for rods) → 棍, 杖, and 竿 might all be fine.
selo: 甲 (shell, nails, armor) → 皮 (skin, peel)
seme: 什 (what, but doesn't make sense as a single character, also a literary term for ten in fractions) → 何 (literary term for what, which)
sijelo: 身 is more restricted to biological bodies, so I'd suggest 体 if we want to include inorganic or more abstract bodies too
sike: 回 (return, to circle around) → 圆 (round, circle) or 圈 (ring, circle, enclose)
suli: 高 (tall, high) → 大 (big)
tan: 从 (from) → 由 (from, by means of, due to, origin, reason)
tawa: 去 (go) → 到 (arrive/reach, but also can be used as a preposition). 对 would be best to mean "to"/"for", but doesn't have the meaning of "to go".
tomo: 穴 (cave, hole) → 房 (house, building, room)
unpa: commenting on the Japanese here: 盛 (serving of food, popular) → 性 (nature, sex)
utala: 斗 (more general term for conflict) seems better than 战 (to fight, war)

Of these, I'd say 菜 for moku, 大 for mute, 甲 for selo, 回 for sike, 高 for suli, and 穴 for tomo are the most off.

Some of my suggested replacement characters are more complicated to write, but I think they're truer to the original meanings, and it'd be really cool if we could have a word-by-word transcription of Toki Pona that a Chinese speaker with no knowledge of Toki Pona could understand.

(For reference, it looks like the current Chinese character set was proposed from
Last edited by enervation on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:21 pm

Last edited by enervation on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Here's the first twenty verses of the Sermon on the Mount:

人 Jesu 又 看 着 组 又 到 高山 又 下 着 后他. 人他 又 来 到 旁他. 人 Jesu 又 给 着 知 到 人. 他 又 言 着 这:
人多 又 知 着 这: “内我 又 坏.” 人这 又 好. 首 的 人高 Jawe 又 的 他.
人多 又 心 坏. 人高 Jawe 又 好 着 心他.
人多 又 知 着 这: “我 下.” 人这 又 来 有 着 土 由 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 好. 人高 Jawe 又 好多 到 人这.
人多 又 好 到 人异 啦 人这 又 好. 作坏异 的 人这 又 小 到 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 不 知 着 坏. 人这 又 在 旁 的 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 末 着 斗. 人这 又 人小 的 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 好. 只 人坏 又 破 着 人好 这. 首 的 人高 Jawe 又 的 人好这.
人 又 坏 到 你. 他 又 言 着 物坏 到 你 由 这: 你 知 着 我. 只 你 好多. 哎 心 好. 哎 心 好多 由 这: 物好 又 的 你 在 土高. 时末 啦 人多 又 坏 到 人好异.
你 甜 到 人全. 只 甜 又 脱 啦 你 能不 新 着 他. 甜 又 脱 啦 你 能不 用 着 他. 人 又 给 着 他 到 道 在 下 的 足 人.
你 日. 人 的 土全 又 看 着 你. 你 土房 在 高山.
人 又 给不 着 日 在 下 包. 他 又 给 着 他 在 棍大. 他 又 日 着 房.
同 啦 你 日 到 人全. 你 好 啦 人异 又 看 着 你 又 言 着 这: 人高 Jawe 又 好.
我 要不 破 着 首 Moses 着 知 的 人言知. 我 要不 破 着 知 他. 我 要 在 着 他. 土高 和 土这 又 在 啦 首高全 又 守. 全 又 末 啦 首高又 末 也.
能 啦 你 作不 着 物小 的 首高. 能 啦 你 言 着 这 到 人异: “哎 作不 着 物小 的 首高.” 你 言 着 这 啦 你 小 在 土高. 只 你 作 着 物全 的 首高又 给 着 知 的 首高 到 人异 啦 你 大 在 土高.

Some thoughts after trying to read this:
- It takes a bit to get used to adjectives coming after nouns.
- tawa when used as a preposition is much closer to 对 than 去 (which can't really be used as a preposition), but 对 doesn't have the meaning of "to go". Maybe we can use 到 as a compromise?
- pi means of, which sort of works the opposite direction of 的

Overall though, it's very cool how much of this makes sense.

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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby janKipo » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:11 am

The discussion of ‘supa’ seems to be that for ‘tan’, which is missing.

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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am

Good catch, just edited! I can't think of any good translations for supa, so I guess it's fine to stick with 张.

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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:02 pm

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

enervation
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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:46 pm


jan Jojanese
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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby jan Jojanese » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:50 am

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2549

a classical chinese toki pona system which is very good
mi pilin pona tawa ijo mijomi ni

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jan Seloki
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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby jan Seloki » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:25 pm

Last edited by jan Seloki on Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.
人り有え人上ら人り要物無。



ญนํลีโญเอะญนํเศะวีลญนํลีวีเละอีโญอล.

enervation
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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:57 pm

I think you're confusing 着 (a particle following verbs) with 看 (to see). A variant form of 着 is 著, so we can use 著 instead to reduce confusion. 著 feels significantly more natural than 把 given Toki Pona's word order. 穴 primarily means hole and maybe a burrow for animals, if you look at the example sentences at http://ichacha.net/%e7%a9%b4.html, which is closer to the meaning of lupa. 房 can mean house or room, and we can consider constructions like tomo tawa = car to be using "house" metaphorically.


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