Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

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janKipo
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:26 pm

Note that pu says that ‘lon x’ at the end can be replaced by ‘x la’ at the beginning. Not the other way around. So, Lope is strictly correct here that you cannot go from ‘x la’ to ‘lon x’ generally.

janKesi
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKesi » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 pm

"X la Y" means roughly "in context X, Y." It encompasses some of the "lon X" meanings but it's also more general than that.

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:42 pm

janKesi wrote:"X la Y" means roughly "in context X, Y." It encompasses some of the "lon X" meanings but it's also more general than that.


toki!

Can you please give me an example, where it would be wrong to say "lon X", whereas "X la" is correct?

Thank you in advance!

Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKesi » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:21 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
janKesi wrote:"X la Y" means roughly "in context X, Y." It encompasses some of the "lon X" meanings but it's also more general than that.


toki!

Can you please give me an example, where it would be wrong to say "lon X", whereas "X la" is correct?

Thank you in advance!

Tepan


well i feel the most obvious one is if/then phrases. whenever the la phrase is a full sentence instead of a single word or phrase it translates roughly as "If X then Y", this cannot be put clearly into phrases with lon. so "mi moku la, mi pilin pona" cannot be converted into *mi pilin pona lon mi moku, this is ungrammatical.

another example that comes to mind is expressing opinion or perspective. the standard way to express this with prepositions is with tawa, not lon. so "mi la, kili li pona" is roughly equivalent to "kili li pona tawa mi", and not "kili li pona lon mi."

lon is equivalent to la in scenarios involving time phrases and anything la-related using location. so "tenpo ni la, mi wile lape" is directly equivalent to "mi wile lape lon tenpo ni." similarly, "mi tawa lon tomo" is equivalent to "tomo la, mi tawa." these phrases correspond basically to "i move in the house" and "in the house, i move" in english, but the second one is more exceptional and would be less likely to be done in practice. expressing time with both la and lon are both basic usages.

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:33 pm

Also, ‘ken la’, 'nanpa wan la’ ‘kin la’, tan ni la’, etc.

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:46 am

janKesi wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:
janKesi wrote:"X la Y" means roughly "in context X, Y." It encompasses some of the "lon X" meanings but it's also more general than that.


toki!

Can you please give me an example, where it would be wrong to say "lon X", whereas "X la" is correct?

Thank you in advance!

Tepan


well i feel the most obvious one is if/then phrases. whenever the la phrase is a full sentence instead of a single word or phrase it translates roughly as "If X then Y", this cannot be put clearly into phrases with lon. so "mi moku la, mi pilin pona" cannot be converted into *mi pilin pona lon mi moku, this is ungrammatical.

another example that comes to mind is expressing opinion or perspective. the standard way to express this with prepositions is with tawa, not lon. so "mi la, kili li pona" is roughly equivalent to "kili li pona tawa mi", and not "kili li pona lon mi."

lon is equivalent to la in scenarios involving time phrases and anything la-related using location. so "tenpo ni la, mi wile lape" is directly equivalent to "mi wile lape lon tenpo ni." similarly, "mi tawa lon tomo" is equivalent to "tomo la, mi tawa." these phrases correspond basically to "i move in the house" and "in the house, i move" in english, but the second one is more exceptional and would be less likely to be done in practice. expressing time with both la and lon are both basic usages.


toki!

Thanks for elaborating.

I was talking about official Toki Pona, and I somehow thought that we both were. Sorry for the confusion. Your reasoning makes perfectly sense in non-official Toki Pona as Pije described it.

In official Toki Pona, there is a comma before "la" in if-then-sentences, and we would be talking about "X, la" and not "X la". "X, la" is the same as "lon ni: X". "mi moku, la mi pilin pona" converts to "mi pilin pona lon ni: mi moku."

I understand that Pije doesn't allow to start a la-phrase with a preposition, but official Toki Pona has no problem with that. So, "X tawa mi" converts to "tawa mi la X". Moreover, there is no "mi la" in pu. (But in non-official Toki Pona, yes, "mi la" would be a good example for how "X la" ≠ "lon X".) So "kili li pona tawa mi" converts to "tawa mi la kili li pona" in official Toki Pona.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:19 pm

Well, pu is a little inconsistent on 'A,la B’ since, in fact, it gives the formula as ‘A la B’, but uses a comma in all examples. This seems to be just Sonja’s habit and not an “official” position, since the comma is never necessary for clarity (or ever mentioned).

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby jan_Lope » Wed May 02, 2018 7:43 am

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:I understand that Pije doesn't allow to start a la-phrase with a preposition, but official Toki Pona has no problem with that.


toki!

On which page in pu is it written that you can start la-phrases (conditional-phrases) with a preposition?
pona!
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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janKipo » Wed May 02, 2018 11:44 am

Trick challenge. Any sample you offer (there is no explicit rule) can be immediately reinterpreted as a noun+ noun or noun+ adj string (cf. the pu/Pije ‘pi’ rule), so not a counterexample, despite “obviously” being a prepositional phrase. Thus ‘tan ni la’, ordinarily meaning “because of this, therefore, so” is now “given this cause/reason” with about the same force. It makes very little practical difference, but it does make some explanations harder or more arbitrary (cf ‘pi’ again).

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Re: Use "seme la" as a yes/no question marker

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed May 02, 2018 4:27 pm

jan_Lope wrote:
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:I understand that Pije doesn't allow to start a la-phrase with a preposition, but official Toki Pona has no problem with that.


toki!

On which page in pu is it written that you can start la-phrases (conditional-phrases) with a preposition?


We were talking about "X la", not "X, la".

"X la" (X = prepositional phrase):
tan seme la soweli wawa pimeja li moku e ona?

"X, la" (X = conditional sentence)
mi pona tawa jan, la jan li pona tawa mi.

Page 52.

I also asked Sonja about "X la" and she confirmed that "la" allows you to put a prepositional phrase at the beginning of a sentence, like

"mi pali tan ni."
-> "tan ni la mi pali."
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


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