mi lawa e kulupu pi toki sin lon tomo Wasintan. kulupu ni li jo e jan pi nanpa lili li sin mute. kulupu ni li wile kama sona e toki sin.
tenpo pini la tenpo esun tu la mi tu wan li awen li toki lon sike supa moku. mi kama jo e jan pona sin tu. wan pi jan pona ni li kepeken pona mute e toki Sinan li jan sona pi toki Sinan.
tenpo suno ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan. jan ni li jan sona suli li pali tawa kulupu (esun) pi sitelen tawa. toki (pi) ona mije li musi li pana e sona tawa mi.
ni li pona mute tawa mi. jan ale (pi) lon ma pi toki sin li sona e jan sona ni.
tenpo pini lili la mi wile pali lili e lawa mi tawa toki Sinan. tenpo ni la mi wile pali suli e lawa mi tawa toki Sinan li wile kama sona e toki Sinan.
tenpo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
tenpo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
toki Sinan (Klingon) li toki ike pi jan ike.
jan pi suno ante li toki kin e toki "aUI". toki "aUI" li nasa li sona li musi.
jan Kanso
jan pi suno ante li toki kin e toki "aUI". toki "aUI" li nasa li sona li musi.
jan Kanso
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
jan pona wan li...janMato wrote: wan pi jan pona ni li...
very ambiguous phrase. the ambiguity is in interpretation of supa - bed, tabletempo suno ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan.
do you mean toki pi mije ni?toki ona mije li..
lon is disputable here. you could say jan ale pi toki sinjan ale lon ma pi toki sin li ...
suli -> mutetempo ni la mi wile pali suli e lawa mi tawa toki Sinana li wile kama sona toki Sinan.
e -> kk
Re: tenpo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
supa is furniture with a notable flat surface.very ambiguous phrase. the ambiguity is in interpretation of supa - bed, tabletenpo suno ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan.
supa lape - bed
supa moku - eating surface
supa awen - furniture for resting
supa monsi - chair
pronoun with modifier, analogous to mi mute.do you mean toki pi mije ni?toki ona mije li..
possessive by juxtaposition, pi not needed because ona is a pronoun and has to be the head of a phrase. I'd have to do some corpus searches to know for sure though, the ratio of NP pi mi mute vs NP mi mute would be informative.
Because it is a prep phrase in nominative slot or because the land of new languages is metaphorical? Can't move it to the end because there are two plausible jan's. I'm sorely tempted to use "pi lon" here. No one is using "pi lon" for prepositional phrases in the DO slot. I guess this is how nominative and accusative inflections develop in natural languages.lon is disputable here. you could say jan ale pi toki sinjan ale lon ma pi toki sin li ...
jan ale pi lon ma pi toki sin li ....
mi lukin e jan ale lon ma pi toki sin
suli still sounds right. Its a large quantity of poorly differentiated work, not a bunch of similar episodes of effort, like driving nails.suli -> mutetenpo ni la mi wile pali suli e lawa mi tawa toki Sinana li wile kama sona toki Sinan.
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
exactly. as i said, without the modifier it is ambiguous: bed, table, ect. moreover awen could also mean stay, lay, seatjanMato wrote: supa lape - bed
supa moku - eating surface
supa awen - furniture for resting
supa monsi - chair
but this is your invention, not a part of tp. by default, that reads (toki ona) mije - his male (masculine?) talkpossessive by juxtaposition, pi not needed because ona is a pronoun and has to be the head of a phrase.
may be informative, but this will change nothingI'd have to do some corpus searches to know for sure though, the ratio of NP pi mi mute vs NP mi mute would be informative.
yes. as its status in tp is unclear it is better (in my opinion) to use something elseBecause it is a prep phrase in nominative slot ... ?
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
Oh, how did I miss this fun yesterday?
How did 'Klingon' (hard) become 'Sinan' (soft)? 'Kinkon' at least (and they'll get us for this)
I'm not sure, of course, but I expect, 'tenpo esun tu pini' is enough for "two weeks ago".'kepeken pona mute e toki Sinan'
"works for a group of movies" surely their makes not the films themselves (exocentric?)
But, to comment on a later comment, 'ona', while a pronoun, does not have to be head of a group, so, if you want to have 'ona mije' as a modifier, you need 'pi'.
Yeah, we know of him at least (with a bit of professional envy, by and large). If we are going to allow PP in NP, we have to decide how to do it, relative to the 'pi' rule. I find this form just baffling mostof the time, but it is the most common form.
What is making your (a little/loi) for Klingon mean? "Study?"
I don't recommend Klingon except to Trekkies, but it has its moments. I( don't recommend aUI at all, except as an example of a modern philosophical language, with all the resultant problems (which it deals with about as well as can be expected).
I took the second 'supa' to pick up the earlier (properly modified) one.
How did 'Klingon' (hard) become 'Sinan' (soft)? 'Kinkon' at least (and they'll get us for this)
I'm not sure, of course, but I expect, 'tenpo esun tu pini' is enough for "two weeks ago".'kepeken pona mute e toki Sinan'
"works for a group of movies" surely their makes not the films themselves (exocentric?)
But, to comment on a later comment, 'ona', while a pronoun, does not have to be head of a group, so, if you want to have 'ona mije' as a modifier, you need 'pi'.
Yeah, we know of him at least (with a bit of professional envy, by and large). If we are going to allow PP in NP, we have to decide how to do it, relative to the 'pi' rule. I find this form just baffling mostof the time, but it is the most common form.
What is making your (a little/loi) for Klingon mean? "Study?"
I don't recommend Klingon except to Trekkies, but it has its moments. I( don't recommend aUI at all, except as an example of a modern philosophical language, with all the resultant problems (which it deals with about as well as can be expected).
I took the second 'supa' to pick up the earlier (properly modified) one.
Re: tenpo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
jan Sonja canon.janKipo wrote:How did 'Klingon' (hard) become 'Sinan' (soft)? 'Kinkon' at least (and they'll get us for this)
kulupu esun. Works for movie studios. If he worked in/on behalf of/for a group of movies, I would have used simple plural. sitelen tawa mute. I don't think I've seen anyone try to implement those Japanese-style counting words, like group, flock, herd, etc, although kulupu would be a 1st choice for that."works for a group of movies" surely their makes not the films themselves (exocentric?)
I posted elsewhere today my thoughts on this.janKipo wrote:But, to comment on a later comment, 'ona', while a pronoun, does not have to be head of a group, so, if you want to have 'ona mije' as a modifier, you need 'pi'.
I'll probably cascade through the options starting with split noun phrases, then pi overlays or pi + PP when splitting is to ambiguous. None of the options are really winners as far as ease of use goes, except for just ignoring the PP go at the end rule altogether.If we are going to allow PP in NP, we have to decide how to do it, relative to the 'pi' rule.
I intend to study more = I used to work my head only a little, I will work my head more. kama sona doesn't differentiate between completion and an ongoing task.What is making your (a little/loi) for Klingon mean? "Study?"
From the man himself, he said he only had four months to put together the language and the diagnostic sentences were the script lines. This compares to Na'vi which was written over 4 years and all the various techniques conlangers use like long lists of well recognized diagnostic sentences, the WALS/CALS database's typology to get good coverage in specifying the entire grammar.I don't recommend Klingon except to Trekkies, but it has its moments.
I usually get busted for being excessively verbose, this is unusual for me to to get busted for using bare nouns. You implying the later was improper? It says "I was at the table in parallel/with with the inventor." Two PP in a row. I'm still grasping at what "with" means when it isn't instrumental or proximate. So far all I can think of is some sense of "in parallel", such as "I collaborated with other fans" (who may have not be proximate and we all may have been using tools rather than each other)I took the second 'supa' to pick up the earlier (properly modified) one.
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
I have "Sisan Klingon?" and also "Kinkon Klingon" but I don't know the source of either. I'm not entirely up on Klingon phonology, but ;Sisan looks unlikely.
Yes, 'kulupu esun pi sitelen toki' makes sense. Alas tp has only a couple of group words, so implementation is unlikely.
But this line of argument is backed only by mistakes, so not relevant at this point in time (defining the language).
PP in NP has nothing to do with the terminal PPs -- except for the added confusion it would raise in DOs. The choices are: don't allow, allow unmarked, allow marked by pi (or some new thing, 'pu' maybe) and, in the last two cases, whether to se off the terminal PPs by commas.
But you don't work your head, you make your head and so on, your head is the product of your working, not the tool. I suppose, 'kepeken' comes in here somehow, but not very satisfactorily from the English point of view.
Dothraki was built in a couple of months in a contest among some long-time conlangers, with only a handful of words from the urtext to go on. I like it better than the other two, but we'll see how it fares (the book is not as popular as Star Dreck nor Whatchacallit). Of course, the participants had largely internalized most of the standard stuff, which the Nas'vi guy didn't even know about and mavbe not Okrand either.
Actually, I thought the shortening was just the right thing to do. The double final PPs happen al the time (and triples, too): not a problem unless there are PPs in the NP complements. I suppose 'poka' means collaboration or interaction or some such notions, just as "with" (non-instrumental -- but we get to a fine line here) does in English.
Yes, 'kulupu esun pi sitelen toki' makes sense. Alas tp has only a couple of group words, so implementation is unlikely.
But this line of argument is backed only by mistakes, so not relevant at this point in time (defining the language).
PP in NP has nothing to do with the terminal PPs -- except for the added confusion it would raise in DOs. The choices are: don't allow, allow unmarked, allow marked by pi (or some new thing, 'pu' maybe) and, in the last two cases, whether to se off the terminal PPs by commas.
But you don't work your head, you make your head and so on, your head is the product of your working, not the tool. I suppose, 'kepeken' comes in here somehow, but not very satisfactorily from the English point of view.
Dothraki was built in a couple of months in a contest among some long-time conlangers, with only a handful of words from the urtext to go on. I like it better than the other two, but we'll see how it fares (the book is not as popular as Star Dreck nor Whatchacallit). Of course, the participants had largely internalized most of the standard stuff, which the Nas'vi guy didn't even know about and mavbe not Okrand either.
Actually, I thought the shortening was just the right thing to do. The double final PPs happen al the time (and triples, too): not a problem unless there are PPs in the NP complements. I suppose 'poka' means collaboration or interaction or some such notions, just as "with" (non-instrumental -- but we get to a fine line here) does in English.
Re: tenpo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
Klingon phonotactics: [CV]CVC[CVC][CVC] or [CV'] (glottal stops as initial or final consonant)janKipo wrote:I have "Sisan Klingon?" and also "Kinkon Klingon" but I don't know the source of either. I'm not entirely up on Klingon phonology, but ;Sisan looks unlikely.
tlhIngan (CVCVC) Like most Klingon words with origins in the story, not very representative of typical Klingon phonotactics. CVCVC is more like a morpheme+ root than a root word.
so from the tlhIngan we get tinan->sinan or linan.
From what few "successes" we have in the conlang world, fantasy/sci-fi languages are over-represented. Funny this idea of nearly completely developed conlangs hasn't occurred to writers of historical fiction or romance novels. (or has it?)Dothraki was built in a couple of months in a contest among some long-time conlangers, with only a handful of words from the urtext to go on. I like it better than the other two, but we'll see how it fares (the book is not as popular as Star Dreck nor Whatchacallit).
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: tempo ni la mi awen lon supa poka mama pi toki Sinan
I assume this is roughly /ti\nnjan/ which does indeed give 'Sinan'. Sorry, I didn't know the local name and just assumed it was "Klingon".
Historical fiction is stuck with historical languages, which someone might know and check up on. Prehistorical fiction does have some made-up languages (the Auel books and Discovery of Fire come to mind) , but those are really fantasy anyhow for the most part. In earlier times, authors made up languages for remote parts of the world (Liliputia, e.g.) but again, these are fantasy. As for romance novels, unless there was some evidence that you could design a language inordinately successful at seduction (a thought worth pursuing, perhaps), anything that slows down the dash to the ripped bodice (or some genteel equivalent) is strictly forbidden. Also, conlangers tend to be nerdy (or is it geeky?) in other respects as well, so mainly read (and write) f/sf.
Historical fiction is stuck with historical languages, which someone might know and check up on. Prehistorical fiction does have some made-up languages (the Auel books and Discovery of Fire come to mind) , but those are really fantasy anyhow for the most part. In earlier times, authors made up languages for remote parts of the world (Liliputia, e.g.) but again, these are fantasy. As for romance novels, unless there was some evidence that you could design a language inordinately successful at seduction (a thought worth pursuing, perhaps), anything that slows down the dash to the ripped bodice (or some genteel equivalent) is strictly forbidden. Also, conlangers tend to be nerdy (or is it geeky?) in other respects as well, so mainly read (and write) f/sf.