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POS - first pass - Page 4 - Toki Pona Forums

POS - first pass

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:39 pm


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:48 pm

I think it more likely that he dropped this before the book was translated (possibly a mistake -- the dropping, not the translation). This seems a very old usage, in keeping with the original 'pi' being only for possessives not general right grouping. And I actually like it better than the form we have now "ni li ilo mi' or so. The problem comes if someone tries to expand on this in some way (to transitive verbs, say)

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm

Mato, this is not ditransitive, in 'mi ken pali e ilo e jan', 'ilo' is DO of pali and 'jan' is DO of 'ken' s[subj[mi] [vp[modal [ken vp[vt[pali] e do[ilo]] e do[jan]]] 'pu' might mark the end of the enclosed VP and maybe also troublesome other things that turn up at the ends of sentences.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:18 am


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:25 am


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan Ote » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:34 am


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:24 pm

As noted, the long form is always possible, though less compact, since it usually requires a repetition. I suspect the short form is mainly for hideous examples and showing off -- and maybe some forms of poetry or oratory (which probably come under showing off).
"move into" is probably 'tawa insa' since the moving isn't inside.
tp, as a conlang, has built in its schematics something about being more like a natural language than a logical code, so a few oddities are to be expected. I'm not sure 'ni pi mi' really is that odd, and certainly wasn't back when 'pi' always meant possession.
Of course, as a transitive verb, 'lon kasi' means "put in a tree" as much as "created herbally" (more so, I would think, since the latter does not make a lot of sense).

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan Ote » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:35 am

I dare to disagree. Yes, we use contraction for doubled "lon" or "tawa":
 He is in/at house:
ona li lon lon tomo -> ona li lon tomo.
 He goes towards house:
ona li tawa tawa tomo -> ona li tawa tomo.
But it doesn't mean it's the same case when we put anything between these two repeated words:
 He moved a stick towards a house:
ona li tawa e palisa tawa tomo -/-> *ona li tawa tawa tomo e palisa -> *ona li tawa tomo e palisa
But this is exactly the case of "lon kasi" used for "put in a tree":
 He placed a thing at/in a tree:
ona li lon e ijo lon kasi -/-> *ona li lon kasi e ijo.
As I said, we use a sequence: subject, action, object, place, so we expect that direct object, "e ijo", will be used before the place:
ona li X e ilo suno lon kasi. = He X a lamp on the tree.
ona li pakala e ilo suno lon kasi. = He damaged a lamp on the tree.
ona li lon e ilo suno lon kasi. = He placed a lamp on the tree.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:40 pm

But your objection assumes that 'ona li lon tomo' is short for 'ona li lon lon tomo' and I don't see any reason to think that, since it is inherently self-contradictory: 'lon' does/doesn't take a noun complement. If 'lon tomo' is OK in one place, why not in the other, since all the P words behave the same in this. And thus there is no repeated word to put something between (none of these has been used as a noun enough to see whetherthis complement works there as well -- but I expect it is permissible, if not often desirable).
The place after the DO is for a preposition, but need not always be a place although the most usual prepositions are P words, which all do refer to place in some uses, but at least 'tan' and 'tawa' are at least as frequent in other meanings, and 'poka' and 'sama' are not placements at all.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:08 am



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