nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

[janKipo]

or 'lawa' -- 'sewi' seems to be actually "over the top, above"

Earlier on is the interesting question: is 'lon insa' a preposition itself oor just the beginning of a prepositional phrase? In practical terms, do we need 'pi' after 'insa' if what follows is two or more words? I flip-flop in this almost minutely.

[jan Josan]

anpa ala/seli/lawa:
Maybe I'm just having trouble with something "on top of a container". If it's not on the lid, where is the top of a negative space? Isn't it just tawa/lon/tan insa poki?

Earlier on is the interesting question: is 'lon insa' a preposition itself oor just the beginning of a prepositional phrase? In practical terms, do we need 'pi' after 'insa' if what follows is two or more words? I flip-flop in this almost minutely.

I was just wondering this a second ago reading jan Ote's "Utala pi jan Kunpapa":

may be ona li tawa lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.

Right.

[janMato]

Earlier on is the interesting question: is 'lon insa' a preposition itself or just the beginning of a prepositional phrase?

Two potential diagnostic tests might be how "ala" works with the prep, or how the phrase behaves with "en" or "anu"

...lon insa tomo. at the inside of the room. Inside the room.
...lon anpa tomo. at the underpart of the room. Under the room.

...lon ala insa tomo. not-at the inside of the room. Not sure ala can modify a prep.
...lon insa ala tomo. at the outside of the room. Looks like ala operates on "lon insa" here.

...lon ala anpa tomo. not-at the underpart of the room. Again, not sure ala can modify a prep.
...lon anpa ala tomo. at the topside of the room. Again, looks like ala operates on "lon anap" here.

the ala constructions could also be,
kasi suli mi li ala lon insa tomo mi. My tree is not in the inside of my house. (My tree isn't indoors. It could be anywhere.)
kasi suli mi li lon insa ala tomo mi. My tree is at the outside of my house. (I own a tree, it's outdoors)
kasi suli mi li lon ala insa tomo mi. My tree is not at the inside of my house. (And in fact, I don't own a tree)

...lon insa tomo mi en somo sina. Prep is 2 words long (or it means inside my house and at your house)
...lon insa tomo mi en insa somo sina. Prep is 1 word long

[janKipo]

'ala' can modify preps, apparently: we have several cases of 'kepeken ala'and 'poka ala,' though not many otheres ("with" and "without" are the most common English negation-pair preps).
'lon insa ala' looks like 'ala' only modifies 'insa,' which leaves the question open somewhat.
'anpa ala' doesn't mean topside, the "polar opposite" force of 'ala' is weak (and 'anpa' doesn't mean "bottom" so much as "below")
'ala' in verb spot means "is nothing" or "annihilate/deny," not "is not" so the first doesn't quite work -- or is at least odd and metaphysical (but I repeat myself). the next raises an extension of my question: If 'lon insa' is a preposition, then when 'lon insa' occurs in the verb slot, does the complement take 'pi'?

[janMato]

'ala' can modify preps, apparently: we have several cases of 'kepeken ala'and 'poka ala,' though not many otheres ("with" and "without" are the most common English negation-pair preps).

Searching confirms. Wikipedia's Phrase grammar is wrong. " #7. A prepositional phrase is of the form: preposition noun phrase" an should read "" #7. A prepositional phrase is of the form: preposition noun phrase OR prep + ala + noun phrase" Anyone know where that phrase grammar came from? Is it cannon, a fan summary or what?

'ala' in verb spot means "is nothing" or "annihilate/deny,"

a a a! my tree is self-destructing inside my house. I guess that happens every year after Christmas.

If 'lon insa' is a preposition, then when 'lon insa' occurs in the verb slot, does the complement take 'pi'?

mi tawa tomo sona. I go to school.
mi tawa noka tomo sona. I walk to school.
mi tawa luka tomo sona. I go to school walking on my hands.

Ambiguous--but valid, imho--reading as coverb or prep phrase:
mi lon insa tomo mi. I'm inside my house. I'm going around inside my house (motion within the house, but not into it).

Less ambiguous variations on the theme.
mi lon ala insa tomo mi. I'm not inside my house. (I wasn't sitting motionless there at my house)
mi lon insa pi tomo mi. I'm inside my house. (not moving) This only makes sense as prep + n + pi + n + m
mi lon insa ala tomo mi. I'm not going around inside my house. (I'm not bouncing around the interior of my house)

And I'm using this coverb concept roughly to mean prepositions that when used as verbs imply motion.

[janKipo]

'lon' doesn't mean "not moving" it only doesn't mention whether moving or not in the space where you are.

Yes, various adverbial extensions do not change the Prep character of 'tawa' and 'lon', but is 'insa' adverbial here (well, it tells place which is something often said of adverbs) or noun?
I take 'lon insa ala' to be "on the outside" (this seems to work when there are only two choices).

[janMato]

'lon' doesn't mean "not moving" it only doesn't mention whether moving or not in the space where you are

Makes sense. When something can mean 2+ things, then it could be any of them. But tawa is motion and if someone wanted to express motion vs not motion, they'd choose lon for stationary. imho.

[jan Josan]

Makes sense. When something can mean 2+ things, then it could be any of them. But tawa is motion and if someone wanted to express motion vs not motion, they'd choose lon for stationary. imho.

the examples I can come up with are:
tomo tawa li lon. There is a car.
tomo tawa li tawa ala. The car is not moving.
mi tawa tomo lon tomo tawa. I go home, in my car.

[janKipo]

Non-motion is 'awen' (although that is really "inertia" so staying stopped if stopped but keeping on moving if moving, but, as you stay, given the choice, it goes with stopped).

Fussbudgetry: I'd say 'mi tawa tomo kepeken tomo tawa' which ruins the poultry a bit but saves being at a moving target.

[jan Ote]

I still don't uderstand what do do with milk. Should I steam it? How to do it? What is the result? Coffee and chocolate parts are clear to me, but I milk is not.