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POS - first pass - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

POS - first pass

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
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janMato
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janMato » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:51 pm

Intransitive verbs and verbs without e, do they have an oblique more often than not? In otherwords, do they act like the English "to speak of something," or the various IE languages that don't characteristically take the accusative, but instead take a genitive, dative or the corresponding prepositional phrase. My search probably discarded a lot of valid verbs that use obliques, but I think the pattern remains. There are probably a lot of verbs that take both an accusative and an oblique (mi pana e moku tawa jan), but that would be a harder set of searches.

kepeken, lon tawa are common obliques for many verbs. weka seems to have an affinity for tan.

The most common oblique constructions are:
li toki kepeken
li toki tawa
li pana tawa
li weka tan
li lukin tawa

sama doesn't really seem to fit the whole pattern. No verb has a strong affinity for poka, lon insa/anpa/sewi/sike. Lots of verbs occur with lon, but there doesn't seem to be any particular affinity between them.
Attachments
intrensitivesWithObliques.PNG

janKipo
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:03 pm


aikidave
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby aikidave » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:21 am


janKipo
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:52 am

Thanks! Yes, context is vital here.

janMato
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janMato » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:55 am

li lon X e Y is still a bugger to parse.

it behaves a bit like prepositional predicates of motion (metaphorical and otherwise), like mi kama jan lawa, mi tawa tomo mi

it is a bit like
* I fasten to this location

But it requires one more arugement. "e" is the case of last resort, it appears, so the 2nd argument takes "e"

? mi lon len noka jan e supa anpa.
I glued the man's shoes to the floor.

jan-ante
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:14 am


janKipo
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:34 am

See list.
'lon' is P, a preposition "at". As a transitive verb is means "cause the DO to be at [complement]" just like 'tawa' as a vt means "cause DO to be toward [complement]" i.e. "move DO to" and so on.
'lon kasi' means (almost anywhere)"at/in the/a plant"; context makes this a Christmas tree. ("modified" may not be the best word here)
It's in the book (see also the original dictionary sheets, which are rather more complex)
The interesting thing with 'lon' is what happens without the NP complement, where it implies "existence" or "truth" as complement.
Mato -- argument talk gets confusing in tp (nice as it may be in Lojban -- though it gets to be a bugger there, too). 'lon' here is a transitive verb, so, ipso facto, it takes a direct object (or maybe conversely). It is also a preposition, so, ipso facto, it takes a NP complement. Parsing is a snap: subj li vt(prep) NPcomp e DO
Your example is pretty much bass ackwards: it says "I put the floor on the man's shoes.", no glue implied.
Last edited by janKipo on Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

janKipo
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am

Thought, confirmed by the stats, suggest that 'tomo' should be A or V, probably A, "built, constructed, fabricated"

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan-ante » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:56 am


janKipo
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:34 pm

Sorry, but that is the way the grammar crumbles. 'lon' is basically a preposition, and, as such, can have a noun complement in context (I haven't seen it tried in modifier slots, but, then ....) Like most tp words, it can be used as a noun ("placing, presence, address" "existence, truth, reality"). a verb ("place, put, insert", "create, verify"), and a modifier (so far without complements , so "real, existent, true"). With a small vocabulary, words have to do extra work (and they don't get paid extra).


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