right way to learn tokipona?

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
solsang
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right way to learn tokipona?

Post by solsang »

Saluton, Moi, Hello, Dav etc

I have been wanting to learn tokipona for several years and ordered the book long time ago for learning it, yet since it seems indefinitely far off, what is a good way of learning now?

I found the toki-pona-lessons.pdf from 2005 and the http://tokipwnage.webs.com/alphabet.htm yet i also see that there are a few new words (as yet unexplained) on the official page and read some other words in this forum, being a perfectionist this is a bit confusing, especially since some ways of expressing things seem changed

Been having trouble with esperanto letters and irregularities too, to the point of almost giving up, seeing how small changes would make it much easier to learn and use for newbies, and fully understand the postponing a tokipona book until such issues as numbers or wordbuilding has found nice useful ways (i really like the simplicity of tp and contrast it to the complexity of esperanto to show the difference again to english)

I have some friends who are also mildly interested in learning it, and i would like to be sure i present the correct language to them, to feel confident i spread the right thing

Yours
Aurin (*Alin*)
Denmark
janKipo
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by janKipo »

Probably the best way to learn is to plunge right in -- on the forums on this page or on tokilili. The vocabulary is in minor flux but the bulk is pretty sure to stay the same and is easy to learn. The grammar is also a snap (even more so that Esperanto -- snicker). What will happen about the few outstanding problems will come as needs to relearn for all of us, so you'll be at no special disadvantage. So sit, whack out a paragraph in tp as well as you understand it and wait for corrections, comments, encouragement and advice. They will come fairly quickly. You'll soon get up to the fairly sophisticated (for a rustic language) level that we all enjoy here.
solsang
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by solsang »

Thanks, i will use the old lessons then, though i see the basic word noka is gone and asun replaces kama jo, those are quite big changes, since i will teach my friends i also guess the mute and ale number system is needed:)

I did a singable translation of the happy celll song, finding i had to change a lot to avoid boring repetitions, though it was really funny and i like thinking of a cell as a tiny human;)

Kalama musi pi jan lili sijelo

//: Jan lili ale sijelo li pilin pona,
jan lili ale jo e pona wawa ://
//: Mi pilin pona, jan ala pilin ike,
sijelo ale li pona tawa mi ://

The Happy Cell Song

//: Every little cell in my body is happy,
every little cell is happy and well. ://
//: I'm so happy, every little cell,
in my body is happy and well. ://
janKipo
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by janKipo »

Cute! Thanx.

//: Jan lili ale sijelo li pilin pona,

I would have said 'jan lili sijelo ali' or 'jan lil ali pi sijelo mi' but the suggestions about the order of modifiers is not yet established (if there is going to be one.

jan lili ale jo e pona wawa ://

'jan lili ale LI jo e pona wawa' every subject except 'mi' and 'sina' needs 'li.' Possesses a mighty good" is loose for "happy and well" but I don't know a better that fits the scheme.

//: Mi pilin pona, jan ala pilin ike,

'jan ala LI pilin ike' again.

sijelo ale li pona tawa mi ://

'sijelo ale' means "every body. all bodies". I think the right way to what you want is 'ale sijelo' or 'ale pi sijelo mi' but Iam open to other suggestions. This last could also mean "I like my whole body."

Now you are a jan pi toki pona!
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jan Josan
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by jan Josan »

solsang wrote:Thanks, i will use the old lessons then, though i see the basic word noka is gone and asun replaces kama jo, those are quite big changes, since i will teach my friends i also guess the mute and ale number system is needed:)
I'm think you meant alasa not asun, but we often still use kama jo and I don't think this will ever be wrong. So far we haven't received any indication from Sonja that she is planning to change things with the new lessons, probably it will be more about clarifying. I'm still not sure why there is no noka on the current pages as it seems to redirect to anpa. So far I haven't heard anything official about if it will be retired eventually, but for now it is still in common use.

The pdf you mention is also on line on jan Pije's website, with interactive quizzes on the end. This forum is the best place to get an in-depth answer to your questions. The chat room, provided someone else is looking on, is a good place to get an immediate response and to practice your toki pona. tokilili is a good place to try out short sentences as well, but a harder place to have an in depth discussion due to the character limit.

o kama pona!
solsang
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by solsang »

jan Josan wrote: I'm think you meant alasa not asun,...I'm still not sure why there is no noka on the current pages as it seems to redirect to anpa. So far I haven't heard anything official about if it will be retired eventually, but for now it is still in common use.
This forum is the best place to get an in-depth answer to your questions. The chat room, provided someone else is looking on, is a good place to get an immediate response and to practice your toki pona. tokilili is a good place to try out short sentences as well, but a harder place to have an in depth discussion due to the character limit.
o kama pona!
Thanks a lot, i am happy to hear i can just use noka, thus if the current list saying 123 words plus noka and monsuta, it would eventually get to the 125 mentioned in the forums, it is easier to say and understand than 118, at least in english, that number has actually been tricky to remember, while 125 is a very common number, even feeling like less:)

I miss a simple list of all the words, one line each, with just one word translation and current status and typical use in frases, i only found the big old lists and those new words in this forum plus in the html link page, which still is under construction, if noone else have such a list i will make an open google doc (unless it is better to put in on the wikia, i would make an english simpler version of http://tokipona.wikia.com/wiki/nimi_ale ... i_Epelanto, including status&use, the important part is being printable or copyable to ipod)

I will try the chat room later when i have learned enough words by heart, and i like the fact that tokilili is limited, that makes me feel more secure when i know others dont expect too much, i find it hard to find the explanations by search in forum (and pu is impossible to search for;)

An hours hit and miss gives me this in addition to the old list:

alasa = hunt & gather [new]
esun = market fair [new]
kipisi = divide? [new]
monsuta = monster?? [probably not used]
namako = salt or spice? [new]
noka =leg/foot [discussed whether nessessary]
pan = life? [new]
pu = ?? [new]

mute = many [new: can be used as "20"]
ale = all [spelling ali also ok, less common?] [new: can be used as "100"]
solsang
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by solsang »

janKipo wrote:Cute! Thanx.

You're welcome, we sing this song at our semiannual nature/spiritual gathering of the nordic region, along with a plephora of other happy songs, mostly to have a little oasis of positive energy a few weeks away from "babylon":)


//: Jan lili ale sijelo li pilin pona,
I would have said 'jan lili sijelo ali' or 'jan lil ali pi sijelo mi' but the suggestions about the order of modifiers is not yet established
Ok, i could change it to "Jan lili sijelo ali li pilin pona" although it is more difficult to sing


jan lili ale jo e pona wawa ://
'jan lili ale LI jo e pona wawa' every subject except 'mi' and 'sina' needs 'li.' Possesses a mighty good" is loose for "happy and well" but I don't know a better that fits the scheme.
Oh, thanks for clarifying, the li is of course needed to add, then i have to cut one other word for the rhythm, maybe ale/ali have to go "jan lili li jo e pona wawa"

//: Mi pilin pona, jan ala pilin ike,
'jan ala LI pilin ike' again.
Ouch, again i have to cut, yet making "mi pilin pona, ala li pilin ike" seems to be wrong too...

sijelo ale li pona tawa mi ://
'sijelo ale' means "every body. all bodies". I think the right way to what you want is 'ale sijelo' or 'ale pi sijelo mi' but Iam open to other suggestions. This last could also mean "I like my whole body."

I actually hoped it would mean i like my whole body, so great i will keep it as is, getting rhythm and grammar together is really tricky and fun;)


Mi final draft changed to (hopefully:) correct grammar, i think there's energetic goodness too;)

//: Jan lili ale sijelo ' li pilin pona,
jan lili ale li jo ' e pona wawa://
//: Mi pilin pona, jan lili ale pi '
si'je'lo li pona tawa mi ://
Now you are a jan pi toki pona!
Thanks, dankon ja kiitos (o pona:)
Last edited by solsang on Mon May 24, 2010 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aikidave
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by aikidave »

I miss a simple list of all the words, one line each, with just one word translation and current status and typical use in frases, i only found the big old lists and those new words in this forum plus in the html link page, which still is under construction, if noone else have such a list i will make an open google doc
Here is a list that I stole from jan Kipo, that has a single word meaning for each tp word:
https://aiki.pbworks.com/TP-single-word-definitions

Here is another list that groups tp words by category:
https://aiki.pbworks.com/TP-words-by-category

Hope these help.

By the way, I refuse to give up my 'noka' !

o kama pona!
janMato
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by janMato »

*** my comments
solsang wrote: alasa = hunt & gather [new] *** improvement over li lukin
esun = market fair [new]
kipisi = divide? [new] *** usage not pinned down yet. In some natural languages this covers, branch, part, division, section, cut, etc. Not sure what is covered in tp yet.
monsuta = monster?? [probably not used] *** This is official and in use.
namako = salt or spice? [new] *** both. Interestingly same word is used for extra stuff that is good and extra stuff that is worthless.
noka =leg/foot [discussed whether nessessary] *** Well, I'll keep using noka.
pan = life? [new] *** pan is official bread and grains. pan as life is community innovation and no idea if anyone else will follow.
pu = ?? [new] *** Yup, that summarizes it.

mute = many [new: can be used as "20"] *** Official, but not all that much better than the old, non-existent counting system. Tops out at about 160 before it's too verbose.
ale = all [spelling ali also ok, less common?] [new: can be used as "100"] ** Also official. The ale/mute words are too easily to confuse with their other meanings. (all apples or 100 apples?)
janKipo
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Re: right way to learn tokipona?

Post by janKipo »

The tp plan is just not to use numbers as cardinals or ordinals; the new system is just as bad (or worse) than the old one and introduces real confusions (as Mato notes). For number names (like dates and addresses), the plan seems to be just to write them out in standard decimal notation for now, although we have no way to pronounce them officially.
The only word which is not pretty well understood is 'pu', about which we know nothing and therefore speculate a lot (most of it cloud-cuckoo landish). The boundaries of the new words need defining a bit, to be sure, but the heartland is firm. Again, Mato gives a good summary, although he may include a few of his own flights, which are not official or even widely used.
The most interesting problem remaining is about word classes, noun, verb and the like. Except for the purely structural words (li, e, la, o,...) it is best to assume that any word can occur in any slot, with a meaning pretty reliably dependent on its basic meaning. The trick is to put things in their slots where they have their basic meaning and state the rules for new meanings from that. It is a fun game that circles between finding cases, formulating rules, and naming classes, with constantly shifting assignments. However, it seems to be settling down now and a fairly definitive list ought to be forthcoming in time to get folded into Sonja's book. Meanwhile, do what seems right and either you get away with it or you get criticized (and maybe you change or maybe your critic does).
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