ma Esi / Estonia

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zeme
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ma Esi / Estonia

Postby zeme » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:57 pm

Here's a short text I've translated. I'd be grateful if you could have a look at it and fix the mistakes ;)

Estonia is a small country in northern and eastern Europe. It shares borders with Russia and Latvia. The capital city is Tallinn. The only other big city is Tartu.
ma Esi li ma lili tan ma Elopa lete. ona jo pini kepeken ma Losi e ma Lawi. ma tomo suli li Talin. Taltu e Talin li taso suli ma tomo.

In 1918 Estonia had a brief period of independence that lasted until the Soviet Union took over the country. In 1991 Estonia gained its independence from the Soviet Union. In 2004 Estonia gained full membership into the European Union.
lon 1918 Esi jo e tenpo "independence" lili "UNTIL" ma "Sowjet Junion?" jo e ma Esi. lon 1991 Esi jo ona "independence" tan ma "Sowjet Junion?". lon 2004 Esi jo ale "kulupu?" insa Elopa Unjon?

Estonia is one of the smallest countries in Europe covering an area of 45,227 sq km (17,462 sq mi).
Esi li wan pi lili ma insa ma Elopa "covering an area of" [..]
Please correct my mistakes :)

janMato
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby janMato » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:41 pm

zeme wrote:Here's a short text I've translated. I'd be grateful if you could have a look at it and fix the mistakes ;)
Estonia is a small country in northern and eastern Europe. It shares borders with Russia and Latvia. The capital city is Tallinn. The only other big city is Tartu.
In 1918 Estonia had a brief period of independence that lasted until the Soviet Union took over the country. In 1991 Estonia gained its independence from the Soviet Union. In 2004 Estonia gained full membership into the European Union. Estonia is one of the smallest countries in Europe covering an area of 45,227 sq km (17,462 sq mi).

tan ma Elopa lete => lon ma Elope lete
Taltu e Talin => Taltu en Talin
pini kepeken => lon poka
ona "independence" => "independence" ona

jan Kipo does a better job of figuring out whats up with a sentence than me, so I'll just add an alternate translation for the rest.

ma Esi li ma lili. ma ni li lon ma lete li lon poka pi suno sewi pi ma Elopa. ma ni li jo e selo lon selo pi ma Losi en ma Lapija(?). tomo mute pi jan lawa pi ma ni li Tawin. ma li jo taso e wan ante pi tomo mute suli. tomo mute ni li Tatu.

tempo sike pi AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLTW la ma Esi li jo e jan lawa sama. tempo lili kama la ma Losi li kama jan lawa pi ma Esi. tempo sike pi AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMLLW la ma Esi li kama ma sama lan ante ma Losi. tempo sike pi AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATT la ma Esi li kama e jan lili pi kulupu ma Elopa. ma Esi li lili. ale ma ante pi ma Elopa li suli. ma Esi li jo e suli selo pi AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMTW suli palisa en palisa pi nasin Metuwiku.

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jan Ote
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby jan Ote » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:45 am

ma Esi li ma lili. ona li lon lete pi ma suli Elopa li ma pi suno weka. ona li lon poka pi ma Losi en ma Lawi. ma tomo Talin li ma tomo lawa ona. ma tomo Tatu li suli kin. ma tomo ante li lon ma Esi. taso ona li suli ala.

tenpo suli pini la jan ante li lawa e jan Esi. jan lawa Posuka li lawa e ona. jan lawa Wensa li lawa e ona. jan lawa Losi li lawa e ona. taso utala suli pi jan ali li kama. tenpo sike 1918 la jan Esi li utala e kulupu lawa Losi. utala li pini la jan lawa Losi li sitelen e toki ni: jan Esi li ken lawa e ma ona. ni li lon.

taso utala suli sin li kama. tenpo sike 1940 jan utala Losi li kama tawa ma Esi. jan lawa pi Losi suli li kama e ni: ma Esi li wan pi ma Losi. jan lawa pi Losi suli li lawa e ona. utala suli li pini. tenpo suli li kama. tenpo sike 1991 jan Esi li kama sin e ni: ona ken lawa e ma ona. tenpo sike 2004 ma Esi li kama e wan pi kulupu ma Elopa.

___________
Numbers, especially years are ike -- there is no good way to express them in toki pona. But if you really have to, then "1918" is a right solution.

There is no official name for Soviet Union, so I use "Losi suli", because in practice "Soviet Russia" and "USSR" were the same. Just another form of the Russian Empire.

janKipo
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby janKipo » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:10 am

zeme wrote:Here's a short text I've translated. I'd be grateful if you could have a look at it and fix the mistakes ;)

Estonia is a small country in northern and eastern Europe. It shares borders with Russia and Latvia. The capital city is Tallinn. The only other big city is Tartu.
ma Esi li ma lili lon ma Elopa lete. ona li jo e pini kepeken 'kepeken' is wrong here but I'm not sure what is right, maybe 'poka', following English at least ma Losi en ma Lawi. ma tomo suli li Talin. ['Talin' is a modifier and so needs a head, 'ma tomo', probably. 'ma tomo lawa' is better for "capital" and reversing the order is also, possible.] Taltu en Talin taso li [taso] [suli] ma tomo suli

In 1918 Estonia had a brief period of independence that lasted until the Soviet Union took over the country. In 1991 Estonia gained its independence from the Soviet Union. In 2004 Estonia gained full membership into the European Union.
lon 1918 Esi jo e tenpo "independence" lili "UNTIL" ma "Sowjet Junion?" jo e ma Esi. lon 1991 Esi jo ona "independence" tan ma "Sowjet Junion?". lon 2004 Esi jo ale "kulupu?" insa Elopa Unjon?

Estonia is one of the smallest countries in Europe covering an area of 45,227 sq km (17,462 sq mi).
Esi li wan pi lili ma insa ma Elopa "covering an area of" [..]


tp doesn't do well (do at all) with large numbers. For now, we just leave the ordinary number in writing and pray that we figure out how to say them someday. But it also doesn't do too well yet with measured dimensions, including the question of appropriate prepositions, Here is an attempt (but one open to various negative comments)
tenpo sike 1918 pini la tenpo lili la ma Esi li lawa e sama. ni pini la ma Sojusi li kama lawa e ona. tenpo sike 1991 la ma Esi li kama jo e lawa sama sin tan ma Sojusi. tenpo sike 2004 la kama kulupu ali e kulupu Wan Elopa.
ma Esi li ma lili. ma mute pi ma Elopa li suli. ma Esi li suli ['kepeken' doesn't seem right, but nothing else suggests itself] [Lord knows how to say "kilometer", let alone 'square kilometer'] 45227 ([ditto "mile"] 17462)

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jan Ote
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby jan Ote » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:54 am

I like "li lawa e sama". But I would rather use "jan Esi li lawa e sama" (which can mean both independence and democracy).
ma Sojusi
kulupu Wan Elopa.
I like these too. Maybe "kulupu ma Wan Elopa"?
ma Esi li kama jo e lawa sama sin tan ma Sojusi.
"lawa sama" for independence sounds good, but a concept expressed in this sentence is very complicated and looks like a calque. "land Estonia has taken independence anew from land Soviet." Land has taken something? Has taken indepedence (which is an abstract)? From another land? This all is very far from toki pona philosophy. While the main concept behind is simple: "Soviet leaders ruled Estonia(ns) before. But Estonians caused this: they rule themselves again." (or "they can rule their land again.")

zeme
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby zeme » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:13 pm

We've translated "In 1918" with different approaches:

- I used "lon 1918", which is obviously wrong as lon should precede location or place; not time.
- janMato used "tempo sike pi 1918" (if we skip the controversial numbering system) -Shouldn't it be "teNpo"?
- jan Ote used "tenpo sike 1918" (which I think translates to: time around 1918)
- janKipo used "tenpo sike 1918 pini la tenpo lili" (to specify the past tense, I suppose)

Now..which way is the best?
Please correct my mistakes :)

janKipo
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby janKipo » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:32 pm

Well, I am partial, of course. My whole prefix says "after year 1918, for a little while" The "foreign" names (and what could be more so than big numbers) directly modify their noun and tend to be taken as a unit even if, when they are at home, they have parts, so no 'pi' (which requires two "words" jan Mato mucking about notwithstanding).
'tenpo sike 1918' means "in 1918" pretty much (I admit things are fuzzy in this area). But I think that 'lon' is wrong here and that prefixes are preferable and yes, 'tenpo' has an 'n' not an 'm' (I think this is the most common typo in tp).

I like putting the governance in the hands of the people, too. maktub (surely misspelled in at least one way). And that carries over to the end, the victim of too much following the letter rather than the spirit.
'tenpo pini la jan lawa Sojusi li lawa e ma/jan Esi. taso tenpo sike 1991 la jan Esi li kama e ni: ona li lawa e sama.'

'kulupu' is head enough for 'Wan Elopa'. If you want to stress that it is a group of countries then 'kulupu pi ma Wan Elopa' or 'kulupu ma Wan Elopa' (and the latter is clearer).

janMato
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Re: ma Esi / Estonia

Postby janMato » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:59 pm

zeme wrote:- I used "lon 1918", which is obviously wrong as lon should precede location or place; not time.

The bias at the moment is to try to use prepositions in a very concrete, literal sense. Toki pona doesn't have an official metaphor system, so it's accumulating one by accident. By weight of mistakes, time, imho, will become a spatial metaphor with the future in the front and the past in the back because many people make that mistake and few people make the other mistake. tempo kama already implies time is a place and the future is far away in some sort of spherical radius around me.

zeme wrote:- janMato used "tempo sike pi 1918" (if we skip the controversial numbering system) -Shouldn't it be "teNpo"?

Yes. My spelling sucks. It may be controversial, but ale ale ale .... is canonical. A toki ponan reading aloud still wouldn't know what to do with 1918, where as repeating ale 19 times at least is a solution, albeit ugly.

zeme wrote:- jan Ote used "tenpo sike 1918" (which I think translates to: time around 1918)

No it's cycle time. There was a long discussion about if the phrases for day and year should be geocentric or heliocentric, especially when it is obvious that the sun is eaten by a dragon every night and the winter cycle is from the annual migration of the snow elves. So "tempo sike suno" is more controversial than "tempo sike", which doesn't indicate what is completing a cycle.

zeme wrote:- janKipo used "tenpo sike 1918 pini la tenpo lili" (to specify the past tense, I suppose)

If 1918 is a proper modifier and pini an ordinary modifier, I would have moved it to the very end of the noun phrase. But there aren't any official orderings of modifiers, although I notice that some ordering look better than others and people seem to be developing biases towards certain orderings (noun [derivational stuff] [modifiers] [Proper modifiers] [possessive modifiers]) So if there is any truth in this ordering, I would assume "pini" is a possessive modifier. The end's of the 1918 cycle time.


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