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toki pi kalama pona suli - Page 6 - Toki Pona Forums

toki pi kalama pona suli

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jan-ante
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan-ante » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:30 pm


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jan Josan
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan Josan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:12 pm

Thank you for the thorough reading and great suggestions. Do you know if he wrote his own Russian translation? I know he worked as a translator from Russian to Italian.

Comments on the suggestions I'm not sure about yet:

tenpo mute la ona li pali e sitelen, lon poka jan ante ala.
>>tenpo mute la ona li pali e sitelen poka jan ante ala.
-- Original English : "shy and touchy man…" I wanted to say he "spent a lot of time writing, alone" not "writing with no one else"

mi wile ala toki e ni: mi kama sona e sona ni kepeken nasin ike seme? taso, sona mi li pona.
>>i do tot ask what a bat method i used to understand this. rather, my knowledges were good is this your intended meaning?
-- Yes. English translation “Even if I do not wish to retrace the involuted and tortuous path which I followed at that time to attain so simple a discovery, this discovery still seems to me today supported by certain self-evident arguments.”

jan li wile kepeken e sona sike, e sitelen ante.
>>jan li ken ala kepeken ala e nasin toki ante, e sitelen ante
--1.wile can mean ‘must’, I’m not sure I have to go with “ken ala kepeken ala” for “can not not use.” 2. I know ‘sona sike’ is a calque, for ‘circumlocutions’ but I don’t know about ‘nasin toki ante’ and ‘sitelen ante’ together, they both seem about the same to me.

sina ken musi e ni: musi sewi seme li kama?
>>ken la sina wile sona e ni: musi sewi seme li kama? or musi sewi li kama tan seme?
--I want this to read “you can imagine this: what great art will come?”

ona li weka e nimi pi toki suli li weka e toki sama toki pi tenpo pini.
>>ona li weka e nimi pi ijo nasa e nimi pi tenpo pini
--this is “avoiding technical terms and clichés” in the English translation.

ona li pana e a anpa, li toki wawa e nimi ni:
>>ona li pana e kon, li toki mute:...
jK>>I like 'a' as a noun in this case or, even better, as a verb: 'ona li a anpa' (though I am not sure if 'anpa' is right for "low" in this sense.
jA>>for whom how. you like, but for me this is a maeningless phrase
--I don’t think this is a calque (no equivalent in English I can think of) English translation “he sighed and quickly resumed” maybe just “ona li pana e a li toki wawa:… or even “ona li a li toki wawa:”

tan seme la, jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni lon mi?
>>jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni lon mi tan seme?
jK>>Here the conditional PP breaks up a cluster of PPs at the end, so might be justified aesthetically. Why 'lon mi' with 'weka? I would expect 'tan mi'
jA>>i have changed my mind "e lili":...sina li awen ala e ike ni tawa mi tan seme?
--I don’t get this last one: “Why have you not kept this bad to(ward) me?”

jan akesi ni li jo e selo mute.
>>not like in the text, but sounds funny. in the text:
ona li lukin sama jan ante mute
jK>>'selo suli' maybe clearer, unless 'mute' is used here for bulk as opposed to just dimensions. 'jan ante mute' "big different man" , maybe 'jan pi ante mute' "a very different man"?
jA>>mute is many, not big. sama jan ante mute like many different/other peolple
--English translation : “This person was a flabby looking man.” so I went with 'lots of skin" but yes it sounds funny. What is it in Russian? i don't understand the 'many other people'

ona li moku lon tomo pi esun moku mi.
>>mi en ona li moku lon tomo moku sama
--Ah yes. English translation was “He used to eat in my trattoria” but I think you must be right, it means jan J also ate there, not that he owned it.

tenpo mute la ona li toki e kalama nasa wan anu tu lon anpa nena pi jan pali pi esun mi.
>>what is anpa nena doing here? may be tawa jan pali pi tomo moku?
--“English translation “under the nose of the waiter” but yours is probably better

jan pali li open en pine wawa e oko ona, li sona ala e toki pi jan lawa Inli.
>>jan lawa Inli is english king/queen. may be you should call this guy just jan jaki. this will make a bit less confusion with british crown
--I wanted to keep the alternate references to “this horrible person etc.” and “the English captain” from the original.

kepeken pali mute la, ona li kama pona li toki:
>>ona li kama pona li toki kepeken pali mute
--What I like about it as a la phrase is it is unambiguous that it modifies both verb phrases.

mi ken sona e ni: ona li jo e pilin moli tan pali sina kepeken toki Pasi. taso mi sona ala e ni: tan seme?
>>ona li pali kk toki Pasi. sona pi pali ni li ike tawa ona. taso mi ken ala sona e ni: tan li seme?
jK>> I think 'tan seme' is a legitimate fragment; the PP in NP is always a problem, though I am getting used to it (and still want 'pi's) My question is , why 'ken sona'? It seems he does know.
--I too think it is a legit fragment, but I like the rare opportunity to use ‘tan’ as the subject, so I am changing to jAnte’s. The original English: “I could see that the though of having written in Persian was unbearable to Y, though I did not yet know why.”

jA>>jan pitoki musi Pasi - persian poet>>
jK>>I suppose 'mama' is used here in the sense of "creative person." a possible but stretchy reading.
--Yes, and I realize now this would mean “inventor of Persian poetry” so I’m going with jAnte’s

tenpo mun pini la mi wile lukin e pali pi mama suli pi toki Pasi. tenpo pini la, mi lukin e sitelen ona, kepeken toki ante. taso, tan pi toki ona li toki Pasi. mi pilin e ni: ona li sitelen kepeken toki Pasi.
>>toki tan li toki Pasi. however the passage above is not from the text. in the text:
mi lukin e sitelen ale mi pi tenpo pini li kama sona e ni: me ken kin kama sona e toki musi Pasi
--I think I a might go with:
tenpo mun pini la mi wile lukin e pali pi jan pi toki musi Pasi. mi lukin e sitelen ale mi pi kama sona pi toki Pasi. mi pilin e ni: mi ken kin sona e toki musi Pasi.

“mi kama sona e monsuta ni:
>>pakala
--at least until monsuta makes it onto the public list of new words, I’ll go with pakala.

Hajinanese (and Hottentot)
>>Awinu (ainu)
--is it Ainu in the Russian version? It’s Hainanese in the English.
I’ll go with ‘toki Ajenanese anu toki Otentote’ for now…

>> why sina???
(I have no good excuse for all the sinas that should have been onas, thanks for catching them all)

>> how long further are you going to go?
-I’d like to do it all, but as you know that second part is going to be hard. It will have to be a much looser translation, maybe even a reinvention.

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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan-ante » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:51 pm


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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby janKipo » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:23 pm

<<I’m not sure I have to go with “ken ala kepeken ala” for “can not not use.”

why? "can not not use"="must use">>
I'm not sure that most people can do the dualities here. I'm used to them, but my students always seemed to balk.

<<2. I know ‘sona sike’ is a calque, for ‘circumlocutions’

i did not know this word before. this translation could be good for advanced speakers of english only>>
And maybe not even for them. Not for me, certainly.

<<sina ken musi e ni: musi sewi seme li kama?
>>ken la sina wile sona e ni: musi sewi seme li kama? or musi sewi li kama tan seme?
--I want this to read “you can imagine this: what great art will come?”

sina ken sona e ni: musi kama li pona/sewi mute>>
Maybe 'plin' rather than "sona" as "imagine" is less assured.

<<ona li weka e nimi pi toki suli li weka e toki sama toki pi tenpo pini.
>>ona li weka e nimi pi ijo nasa e nimi pi tenpo pini
--this is “avoiding technical terms and clichés” in the English translation.

nasa is also complex. stupid and complex is the same for jan Sonja (& therefore tp philosofy)>>
I'm not sure that 'nasa' is "complex" ('ike' surely is) It seems to be more "unusual" and thus in a variable relation to technical jargon.

<<maybe just “ona li pana e a li toki wawa:… or even “ona li a li toki wawa:”

pana e kalama "a">>
We aren't going to agree on this one ever, I suspect.

<<jA>>i have changed my mind "e lili":...sina li awen ala e ike ni tawa mi tan seme?
--I don’t get this last one: “Why have you not kept this bad to(ward) me?”

yes, bad idea. then jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni tan mi. tan ni li seme>>
I'd just stick the adverbial "why?" on. "This cause/the cause of this is what?" is murky. But "why not forgive" rather than "why preserve" or whatever is a good move.

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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan-ante » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:23 am


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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:32 pm


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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan Josan » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:07 pm


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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan Josan » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:09 pm

toki pi kalama pona suli
-jan Tomaso Lantopi

suno li kama la mi mute li pine e lape. mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa. mi mute li pilin musi tan sona tu ni: mi moli ala; ijo ale pi tenpo suno ni li sama e ijo pi tenpo suno pini. tenpo suno wan la mi lukin e ma kepeken nasin pi lupa tomo li pilin sama ni. jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi lupa tomo.

ona li jan pi toki lili. tenpo mute la ona li pali e sitelen li lon poka jan ante ala. ni li musi tawa mi: ona li pilin wawa. mi len. mi tu li toki e ijo lili. ni li nasa tawa mi: pilin ona li ante tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi. mi ken sona pona e ni: ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kama tawa ona. tenpo lili li tawa. mi kute e ona. ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e toki ni tawa mi. ona li ken toki e ni kepeken nimi lili. taso ona li toki e nimi ni: “toki mi li lukin nasa tawa sina la, o pini ala e mi!”

mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki tawa ona: “o toki.”

ona li open e toki kepeken nimi ni: “tenpo suli pini la mi pali mute e musi sewi. mi lukin e ijo lili ale, lon insa sitelen. mi kepeken e nasin ni la, mi kama sona e ni taso: mama sitelen li jo e ilo pali ale pi musi sewi la, ona li pali ike. jan li sona pona e toki la, ona li pali ike, kepeken toki ni. jan li sona lili e toki ante la, ona li ken pali e musi pona en suli, kepeken toki ante ni. mi wile ala toki e ni: mi kama sona e sona ni kepeken nasin ike seme? taso, sona mi li pona. ni li lon: jan li sona ala e nimi ale la, jan li wile kepeken e nasin toki sin, e sitelen ante. sina ken pilin e ni: musi kama li pona mute. mama musi li ken weka e toki moli kepeken nasin ni: ona li weka e nimi ike li weka e toki sama toki pi tenpo pini. tenpo ni la, musi sewi li ken kama lon.”

jan J li pilin pona. ona li pilin e ni: sona ona li pona. ona li pine e toki li pini lili e oko ona. ona li weka e ike ona. taso ona li lukin e ni: mi sona ala e toki ona. ona li pana e a anpa, li toki wawa e nimi ni:

“tenpo pini ni la, mi kama sona e jan sin. ona li ,a…, li jan akesi jaki! mi ken ala kin nimi e ona kepeken nimi ante. ona li jan akesi jaki li lawa Inli pi tomo tawa telo. tenpo kama la, sina kama sona e ni: mi nimi e nimi ‘jan akesi jaki’ tawa jan ni tan seme. a! jan sewi o, sina li weka ala e ike ni tan mi. tan ni li seme? tenpo ala la mi ken pilin pona!
jan akesi ni en mi li moku lon tomo moku sama. ona li toki e pali sina kepeken kalama suli. tenpo ale la jan mute li sike e ona li kute. tenpo mute la ona li lon ma Asija li kama sona e toki ante mute tan ma ni. ona li sona e toki Pasi pi ma Ilan kin. sona ni li suli mute tawa ona. tenpo mute la ona li toki e kalama nasa wan anu tu tawa jan pali pi tomo moku. jan pali li open en pine wawa e oko ona, li sona ala e toki pi jan lawa Inli. jan lawa li lukin musi li toke e nimi ni: ‘a! mi wile e telo nasa!’ anu ‘a! mi wile moku e wan soweli seli.’ sina o sona e ni: mi pilin ike mute tawa jan ni. taso tenpo suno wan ike la mi en ona li toki. ona li toki e ni: ‘mi ken pana e sona pi toki Pasi tawa sina.’ Ni li ken kama lon: mi sona lili e toki Pasi la mi ken pali e musi suli kepeken toki ni. tan ni la mi wile kama jo e sona pi toki Pasi. tenpo ni la sina sona e wile mi: mi wile e sona pi toki Pasi. taso mi wile ala e sona ale pi toki Pasi.
tan tenpo ni la jan Inli li pana e sona pi toki Pasi tawa mi. ona li pilin e ni: jan li wile kama sona e toki sin la, nasin pona nanpa wan li ni: jan li toki mute taso. tan ni la mi jo ala e toki awen pi toki Pasi. mi mute li tawa lon nasin li toki kepeken e toki Pasi taso. mi anu ona li pilin wawa ala la mi tu li tawa tomo moku. ona li sitelen mute e linja sike lili pi toki Pasi. tenpo sike suno wan la, mi pali lon nasin ni. tenpo mute la jan lawa Inli li toki e ni: ona li pana e sona mute tawa mi. sona mi li pona li suli. tenpo suno sike li pine la, ona li toki e ni: ona li weka. ken la ona li tawa ma Sukosi. ona li lon ma seme? Mi sona ala. taso mi wile e ni: ona li kama lon ike.”

jan pona mi li pini. ona li wile lawa e pilin ona. oko en uta ona li jo e lukin pi pilin pakala. ona li lawa kepeken pali mute li kama pona li toki:

“jan akesi li weka. taso tenpo pini ni la mi ken toki lili kepeken toki Pasi li ken pali e sitelen kepeken toki Pasi. mi pali mute. mi kama jo e lawa ni: ‘o sitelen kepeken toki Pasi taso. o sitelen taso e musi sewi, tan pilin pi lon insa mi. mi mama e toki pi kalama pona a! tenpo suli la, mi sitelen, kepeken toki Pasi. ni taso li pona: mi sitelen lili, kepeken tenpo suli. mi pali e sitelen lili tu wan taso. tenpo kama la sina ken lukin e ni. sina ken lukin e sitelen mi pi kepeken toki Pasi.”

ona li pali kepeken toki Pasi. sona pi pali ni li ike tawa ona. taso mi ken ala sona e ni: tan li seme?

“kepeken toki Pasi.” tenpo sin la, ona li toki e toki ni. “taso tenpo ni la, sina ken sona e ni: toki Pasi pi jan akesi li toki ike kin! tenpo mun pini la mi wile lukin e pali pi jan pi toki musi Pasi. mi lukin e sitelen ale mi pi kama sona pi toki Pasi. mi pilin e ni: mi ken kin sona e toki musi Pasi. mi kama jo e toki awen pi jan Pasi ni kepeken pali mute. toki awen li kama, lon insa poki pona. mi pilin wawa. mi tawa wawa tomo mi. mi suno e ilo suno. mi anpa e mi tawa supa, li seli e kasi kon. mi kama jo e toki awen tan insa poki. mi open e toki awen.

nanpa wan la, mi pilin e ni: mi kama jo e toki awen ike. sitelen ni li lukin sama ala sitelen pi jan Inli. taso tenpo ni la mi sona e ni: toki awen ni li toki awen Pasi kin. nanpa tu la, mi pilin e ni: ken la, mi kama sona e toki Pasi. taso jan akesi li kepeken e sitelen ante. mi kepeken e ijo ante mute: mi lukin tawa lipu Pasi mute, tawa toki awen mute pi jan pi sona toki Pasi. taso, lon pini… lon pini…” tenpo ni la jan J li pana e oko telo, “mi kama sona e pakala ni: jan akesi li pana ala e sona pi toki Pasi tawa mi! ken la mi kama sona e toki ante: toki Jakuto anu toki Awinu anu toki Nama. mi toki tawa jan lawa pi sona toki. ala. ala. toki ni li lon ala! tenpo ale la toki ni li lon ala! pini la, mi pana e sitelen toki, tawa jan lawa Inli pi tomo tawa telo. tenpo pimeja pini la mi kama jo e sitelen ona.”

jan J li pana e lipu tawa mi li anpa e lawa ona. mi lukin e sitelen ni:

“jan suli o,
mi kama jo e sitelen sina. nanpa wan la, sina pana e wan toki kepeken toki nasa musi. mi sona e toki pi ma mute. taso tenpo ala la mi lukin e toki sama toki sina. mi pilin e ni: toki ni li tan nasa wawa pi lawa sina. sitelen nasa ni li lukin sama lili toki Alapi anu toki Po. taso ona li sitelen ni ala.
nanpa tu la, sina toki e tenpo ni: mi pana e sona pi toki Pasi tawa sina. tenpo pini suli la mi kama sona e toki Pasi. ken la ike lili wan anu tu li kama lon toki mi kepeken toki Pasi. taso o pilin ike ala tan ni. sina ken pona e ike ni kepeken pali lili.
tenpo kama la mi wile lukin e sitelen sina sin. mi wile e ni: pona li kama tawa sina…”

“tenpo ni la mi ken sona e ale,” jan J li lawa e pilin ona. “mi ken ala pilin e ni: jan lawa Inli li wile e musi ike. mi pilin e ni: ona li pana e sona kepeken toki Pasi, tawa mi. taso toki ni li toki Pasi ona, li toki Pasi pi ona kin. toki ni li sama ala toki Pasi. ale li ante. mi pilin e ni: sona pi jan lawa akesi li ante, sama kon tawa. tenpo pini suli la, ona li kute e toki Pasi, li lukin e sitelen Pasi. ona li pana e kalama sama, li sitelen e linja sama. taso ona li kepeken ala e toki Pasi. tenpo li tawa la, jan akesi li ante ale e sona ona. ona li lukin e sitelen mi la ona li lukin e toki ona pi tenpo pini li ken sona ala e toki ni. toki ni li toki sin tawa ona.”

kalama toki pi jan J li kama anpa. taso pilin ona li ante. ona li toki utala “jan akesi li weka e sona ale pi toki ni! sina wile sona e ni: seme li lon? tenpo ni la o sona!” jan J li pini, li lawa e kon ona. “taso ike suli li ni: toki ni, toki pi nimi ala, li pona kin. mi olin suli e toki ni.”

tenpo ni la, jan J li pini kin. ona li lawa e pilin ona la, mi open e toki mi. “ijo ni li ike. sina pali mute li kama jo ala. taso ken la ike ni li suli ala.” taso jan J li pilin sama ala. “sina ken sona ala sona e ike ni? sina ken pilin seme tan musi suli mi? mi pali e musi suli tu wan. mi pana e pilin pona ale mi tawa toki musi ni. musi suli ni li seme? musi ni li kepeken e toki pi lon ala. ni li sama ni: musi suli li kepeken e toki ala.” mi kama sona e pilin sina. mi toki e ni: “a. ni li ijo pi lukin ike.” ona li kalama: “sina toki ala toki e ni: ijo pi lukin ike?...taso…”
tenpo pini ni li pona mute. tenpo pimeja mute la, mi tu li lon esun moku. mi tu li lukin e sitelen suli e musi suli. mi toki pi ijo suli li jo ala e mani tawa moku pini mi.


jan-ante
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby jan-ante » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:57 am


janKipo
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Postby janKipo » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:19 pm

Two controversial points: 1) is the DO of 'nimi' the name or the thing named? Different specifications of the result of transforming a noun into a vt yield different results. I personally (perhaps because I speak English and use "name" this way) think the second view is best, leaving the question of where to put the name (modifying the verb? at the end with 'kepeken' or some other prep?). The other approach solves that problem, of course, and the recipient of the name gets 'tawa'/
2) Are compound preposition prepositions (and so take an NP complement) or are the a Prep + the beginning of an NP (so that specifying further is a modifier to the second part of the phrase)? This seems about evenly divided, so I am not sure which way the wind blows. Does anyone have a definitive answer?
(Afterthought) Maybe also just how broad or narrow 'lon' is> It means "on/ at/ in" depending on circumstances, so when does it need 'insa' (or any of the other additions)? I am inclined to think it is a matter of emphasis rather than correctness. If the insideness is important (Jonah in the whale, say) then use 'insa'; if it is only the general area that counts, then unadorned 'lon' should do. But where to draw the line? Aesthetics.


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