esun kepeken toki pona

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jan Josan
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esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:45 pm

janMato wrote:
jan-ante wrote:also norma loquendi is not applicable to tp because it does not serve as a normal language, i.e. it is not a tool of communication between poeple. note on this forum we do not use tp to transmit any important information


Ah! A challenge! I just checked, in Wisconsin at least you can have legally valid contracts written in foreign languages. So anyone want to sell me something so we can write the contract in toki pona?

mi wili e ni: mi kepeken mani tawa ijo seme. jan seme li esun e ijo tawa mi? mi tu li sitelin e lipu pi lawa mani. lipu pi lawa mani li sona pi suli mute.

Maybe I'll try sending a legally binding offer to purchase a sweater to jan Sonja in toki pona.


jan Mato o. mi ken esun e ijo tawa sina. mi tu li pali e lipu pi lawa mani. mi tu li pilin pona tawa lipu la, mi ken sitelen e toki ni kepeken sitelen suwi mi. mi pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama. mi pana e sitelen tu tawa sina. sina pana e linja nimi sina lon lipu tu. sina pana e sitelen tu tawa mi. mi pana e linja nimi mi lon lupu tu. mi pana e lipu wan tawa sina. mi awen jo e lipu ante. sina pana e mani tawa mi. ni li pona ala pona?

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janMato » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:42 pm

jan Josan wrote:jan Mato o. mi ken esun e ijo tawa sina. mi tu li pali e lipu pi lawa mani. mi tu li pilin pona tawa lipu la, mi ken sitelen e toki ni kepeken sitelen suwi mi. mi pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama. mi pana e sitelen tu tawa sina. sina pana e linja nimi sina lon lipu tu. sina pana e sitelen tu tawa mi. mi pana e linja nimi mi lon lupu tu. mi pana e lipu wan tawa sina. mi awen jo e lipu ante. sina pana e mani tawa mi. ni li pona ala pona?


jan Josan o tenpo suno ni li pona,

mi tu li pilin sama. sina jan pali pi sitelen sewi. sitelen li pona mute tawa mi. mi jo e mani lipu pi ma Mewika. mani lipu li nanpa ale. nanpa li 100 lon nasin pi luka luka.

sina li jo e sitelen seme tawa esun?

mi wile awen ala tawa sitelen suwi sina taso mi awen.

mi tawa,

jan Mato

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jan Josan
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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:05 pm

jan Mato o lukin e ni. ni li pona ala pona tawa sina?


lipu pi lawa mani

jan Mato li jan kama jo. jan josan li jan pali. jan kama jo en jan pali li wile e esun.

nampa wan: jan kama jo en jan pali li pali e lipu pi lawa mani.

nampa tu: lupu pi lawa mani li pona tawa ona tu la, jan pali li pali e sitelen. sitelen ni li kepeken e toki sama toki pi lipu pi lawa mani. jan pali li pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama.

nampa tu wan: jan pali li pana e sitelen tu tawa jan kama jo.

nampa tu tu: jan kama jo li pana e linja nimi ona lon sitelen wan en sitelen tu. jan kama jo li awen jo e sitelen wan. jan kama jo li pana e sitelen wan tawa jan pali. jan kama jo li pana kin e mani pi nanmpa ale tawa jan pali.

nampa luka: jan kama jo li jo e sitelen wan. jan pali li jo e sitelen tu li jo e mani. ale li pona.


jan kama jo: __________________
jan Mato

jan pali: __________________
jan Josan

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:17 pm

jan Josan wrote:jan Mato o lukin e ni. ni li pona ala pona tawa sina?


lipu pi lawa mani

jan Mato li jan kama jo. jan josan li jan pali. jan kama jo en jan pali li wile e esun.

A possessive future man? maybe 'jan pi kama jo' "a get man" or 'jan pi wile jo' "a potential buyer"?
nampa wan: jan kama jo en jan pali li pali e lipu pi lawa mani.

Still not sure just how this means contract or whatever rather than "Note on Economics" "Sheet of Money Head" (or "Cattle head". of course, which raises all sorts of other possibilities). I would suppose that 'sitelen' is also a reasonable verb here. 'nanpa wan la'
nampa tu: lupu pi lawa mani li pona tawa ona tu la, jan pali li pali e sitelen. sitelen ni li kepeken e toki sama toki pi lipu pi lawa mani. jan pali li pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama.

'nanpa tu la' 'lipu' OK thereafter
nampa tu wan: jan pali li pana e sitelen tu tawa jan kama jo.

'nanpa tu wan la' The party of the second part is still obscurely defined.
nampa tu tu: jan kama jo li pana e linja nimi ona lon sitelen wan en sitelen tu. jan kama jo li awen jo e sitelen wan. jan kama jo li pana e sitelen wan tawa jan pali. jan kama jo li pana kin e mani pi nanpa ale tawa jan pali.

'nanpa tu tu la' ''sitelen nanpa wan en sitelen nanpa tu' (not three writings) Similarly later. Probably rather 'mani kin'
nampa luka: jan kama jo li jo e sitelen wan. jan pali li jo e sitelen tu li jo e mani. ale li pona.

'nanpa luka la' 'sitelen nanpa wan' and so on

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jan Josan
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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:00 pm

mi ante e lipu kepeken sona pi jan Kipo. lipu sin li pona ala pona tawa sina?


lipu lawa pi esun kama

jan Mato li jan pi wile jo. jan josan li jan pali. jan pi wile jo en jan pali li wile e esun.

nampa wan la, jan pi wile jo en jan pali li sitelen e lipu lawa pi esun kama.

nampa tu la, lipu lawa pi esun kama li pona tawa ona tu la, jan pali li pali e sitelen. sitelen ni li kepeken e toki sama toki pi lipu lawa pi esun kama. jan pali li pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama.

nampa tu wan la, jan pali li pana e sitelen tu tawa jan pi wile jo.

nampa tu tu la, jan pi wile jo li pana e linja nimi ona lon sitelen nampa wan en sitelen nampa tu. jan pi wile jo li awen jo e sitelen nampa wan. jan pi wile jo li pana e sitelen nampa tu tawa jan pali, li pana e mani Mewika pi nanmpa ale tawa jan pali.

nampa luka la, jan kama jo li jo e sitelen nanpa wan. jan pali li jo e sitelen nanpa tu li jo e mani. ale li pona.


jan pi wile jo: __________________
jan Mato

jan pali: __________________
jan Josan

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:34 am

nanpa

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janMato » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:26 am

jan Josan! pona la mi lukin e nimi sina,

lipu lawa pi esun kama li pona mute.

mi *sona* e sina. sona mi li ijo ni. sona sina li ijo ni. ijo tu li sama lon lawa mi mute.

jan li pali la mi pilin e ni : mi wile e ni: jan li pali tawa mani. ona li *sama*. mi kepeken e nimi sama tawa nasin pona tawa nasin pakala ala.

mi wile e lipu tawa tomo mi. mi wile e ni : sitelen sewi lon selo tomo insa.

tomo mi li lon
*(snip see private message, just posting here to get the communities input as well)*

weka e sitelin sewi tawa ma ni. (a a a! mani li kalama sama e nimi "ma ni")

sina tomo li ma seme? mi jo e sona pi tomo sina la mi weka e lipu lawa pi esun kama tawa sina.

mi ken kepeken e lipu mani pi ma Mewika pi kule laso jelo. ni li pona ala.

mi ken kepeken e lipu mani pi esun mani "Etrade".

lipu mani pi esun mani li pona anu pona ala?

mi tawa,

jan Matthew Martin

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:23 pm

<<mi *sona* e sina. sona mi li ijo ni. sona sina li ijo ni. ijo tu li sama lon lawa mi mute.>>Probably just 'mi tu'

<<jan li pali la mi pilin e ni : mi wile e ni: jan li pali tawa mani. ona li *sama*. mi kepeken e nimi sama tawa nasin pona tawa nasin pakala ala.>>? "It is similar. I use the same word for a good path to a not-disastrous path"?

<<sitelen sewi lon selo tomo insa.>> ? a painting on the ceiling? a drawing high on the wall? probably 'selo insa toma' in any case.

<<weka e sitelin sewi tawa ma ni. (a a a! mani li kalama sama e nimi "ma ni")>> Why 'weka' rather than 'pana'? Or am I missing the point here? (They have different stress and juncture patterns: ma'ni ma'+ni' -- such pairs are common in tp -- deliberately.)

<<sina tomo li ma seme? mi jo e sona pi tomo sina la mi weka e lipu lawa pi esun kama tawa sina.)>> 'tomo sina' (head first -- against English habit) or just 'mi sona e tomo sina la' again, why 'weka' rather than, say, 'pana'?

<<lipu mani pi esun mani li pona anu pona ala?>> probably 'lipu pi esun mani' is enough. don't need 'anu': 'pona ala pona'

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janMato » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:23 pm

[quote="janKipo"]<<mi *sona* e sina. sona mi li ijo ni. sona sina li ijo ni. ijo tu li sama lon lawa mi mute.>>Probably just 'mi tu'

<<jan li pali la mi pilin e ni : mi wile e ni: jan li pali tawa mani. ona li *sama*. mi kepeken e nimi sama tawa nasin pona tawa nasin pakala ala.>>? "It is similar. I use the same word for a good path to a not-disastrous path"?

Yeah, this was hard. I was trying to say "fair/just" (e.g. equal value for equal value), which made me thing of "equal", which seems close to "sama". In regular speech, when one uses a word in a rare sense, you can qualify it by saying, "Well, when I said I know her, I didn't mean it in a carnal sense." In English it works just fine because the sentence has the narrow (carnal knowledge) and wide (know) words, but in tp, the qualifying clause ...well doesn't have many handy synonyms.

<<sitelen sewi lon selo tomo insa.>> ? a painting on the ceiling? a drawing high on the wall? probably 'selo insa toma' in any case.

holy-writing on the inner house skin (inside walls), hieroglyphs. I keep misreading sitelen sewi as sitelen suwi (a sweet font)-- if it was sweet-writing or candy-pictures, at least it would be obvious that it is an idiom or gibberish. I've seen in technical conversations with other computer programmers that never before used idioms can be established, which the interlocutor will begin using immediately with out further question. I think it would be handy if that fell into the realm of permissible ways to coin phrases in toki pona.

<<weka e sitelin sewi tawa ma ni. (a a a! mani li kalama sama e nimi "ma ni")>> Why 'weka' rather than 'pana'? Or am I missing the point here? (They have different stress and juncture patterns: ma'ni ma'+ni' -- such pairs are common in tp -- deliberately.)

This may be BS, but weka feels better because I'm removing the item from my possession and releasing it into the postal service. pana seems like a word for handing something over.

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:26 pm

Oh, nice ones all!
"fair" does seem like something about 'sama,' but (Rawls not withstanding) it is not clear just what. I suppose the safe way is 'pona' (as it often is in tp). I suppose the point here is that each gets what he wants, as the prelude almost says. I still haven't quite worked out how any of this is in that last sentence.

"hieroglyphs on the wall" Sorry, I just wasn't thinking "holy" at the time and it is still not clear to me that you meant "holy" in other than an etymological sense. I'm not sure "picture language" 'toki sitelen' would have been clearer, though. The difference between "interior house skin" and "house interior skin" is minimal, though I suppose a philosopher could make a big deal of it. The rapid spread of idioms -- including their instant conmprehension -- requires a shared context and a shared culture, neither of which is really available for tp over the net, except sometimes when talking about a text in front of us.

'weka' has the connotation of "discard," 'pana' has the connotation of "give." These come from their most common (so far) uses and may not endure. More literally, 'pana' stresses the "away from me," directional, side, 'weka' the distance it goes.


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