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ijo lili li pakala lili - Toki Pona Forums

ijo lili li pakala lili

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
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ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:44 pm

mi wile ala ante e toki pona. mi wile e ni taso: jan li ken lukin pona e nasin nimi pi toki pona.
So:
1. The 'jan li pana e sitelen tawa mi' = " A guy gave me a picture" or "I guy showed my movie" problem. Nothing in writing distinguishes that 'tawa' as modifier or preposition. There is probably a difference in speech, though. I suggest that we import that vocal suprasegmental (juncture, in this case, I suppose) to something in our writing: a comma before the preposition: 'sitelen, tawa mi' = "a picture to me" v 'sitelen tawa mi' = "my movie"

2. While on prepositional phrases, let's officially allow them to modify noun phrases. but, since they are going to be at least two words long and grouped as a unit, lets offset them with 'pi' (OK, this is probably a change, but ...): 'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja' "a big man from Texas"

3. And while we are on 'pi,' what can we do about structures of the form: a pi b c d, where d can modify either b c or a pi b c? Commas would only add to confusion here. One partial suggestioon is to move a modifier a pi b c up to modify a directly wherever possible: a d pi b c. The other advise is the standard "don't use such complex phrases to begin with," but doesn't get us far when we need the complexity.

4. 'tenpo la' structures (probably all 'la' structures) Here I have no suggestions at all, merely a plea for some regularizations. We seem to have usually managed so far; how did we do it and what generalizations can be drawn from that? Here are some apparent agreed cases (note that they don't fit into patterns very well):
tenpo mute/lili often/rarely
tenpo suli for a long time ("a short time" would apparently be 'tenpo lili' again)
tenpo pini/kama in thepast/future
tenpo pini mute a long time ago (or maybe 'tenpo mute pini,' which might also mean "after a long time")

at a time (or event)
for a time (during an even)
ago
before/after
others?

5. "about" for the topic of a talk, thought, etc. (toki, sona, pilin, maybe kute, lukin, other?) So far at least the following have been tried:
toki (pi) A ('pi' when A is two or more words, as it usually is)
toki e ijo (pi) A
sike(calque)/ lon (calque)/ tawa (because it's tried for everything) A
others?
The 'ijo' solution does the least damage to common tp, the 'toki pi' solution is not much worse (though it was suggested long ago for "in language A"), none of the preps seem right at first glance.+

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan-ante » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:36 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Ote » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:10 am


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:56 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:10 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:49 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:02 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:48 pm


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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:32 am

4.
How clearly would you understand this (in, or at the beginning of a story): tenpo suno wan la... ?

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:55 pm

Out of the blue, I would read it as "on one day" or, maybe, because that looks odd, "for one day." I have seen it, however, as you know, used to mean "on the wedding day," in a context that does support this reading, but also, a fortiori supports the above readings. I don't know a good way to make the better, except, say, 'tenpo suno pi wan mi,' which is odd enough to force a rethink.


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