ijo lili li pakala lili

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
janKipo
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ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:44 pm

mi wile ala ante e toki pona. mi wile e ni taso: jan li ken lukin pona e nasin nimi pi toki pona.
So:
1. The 'jan li pana e sitelen tawa mi' = " A guy gave me a picture" or "I guy showed my movie" problem. Nothing in writing distinguishes that 'tawa' as modifier or preposition. There is probably a difference in speech, though. I suggest that we import that vocal suprasegmental (juncture, in this case, I suppose) to something in our writing: a comma before the preposition: 'sitelen, tawa mi' = "a picture to me" v 'sitelen tawa mi' = "my movie"

2. While on prepositional phrases, let's officially allow them to modify noun phrases. but, since they are going to be at least two words long and grouped as a unit, lets offset them with 'pi' (OK, this is probably a change, but ...): 'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja' "a big man from Texas"

3. And while we are on 'pi,' what can we do about structures of the form: a pi b c d, where d can modify either b c or a pi b c? Commas would only add to confusion here. One partial suggestioon is to move a modifier a pi b c up to modify a directly wherever possible: a d pi b c. The other advise is the standard "don't use such complex phrases to begin with," but doesn't get us far when we need the complexity.

4. 'tenpo la' structures (probably all 'la' structures) Here I have no suggestions at all, merely a plea for some regularizations. We seem to have usually managed so far; how did we do it and what generalizations can be drawn from that? Here are some apparent agreed cases (note that they don't fit into patterns very well):
tenpo mute/lili often/rarely
tenpo suli for a long time ("a short time" would apparently be 'tenpo lili' again)
tenpo pini/kama in thepast/future
tenpo pini mute a long time ago (or maybe 'tenpo mute pini,' which might also mean "after a long time")

at a time (or event)
for a time (during an even)
ago
before/after
others?

5. "about" for the topic of a talk, thought, etc. (toki, sona, pilin, maybe kute, lukin, other?) So far at least the following have been tried:
toki (pi) A ('pi' when A is two or more words, as it usually is)
toki e ijo (pi) A
sike(calque)/ lon (calque)/ tawa (because it's tried for everything) A
others?
The 'ijo' solution does the least damage to common tp, the 'toki pi' solution is not much worse (though it was suggested long ago for "in language A"), none of the preps seem right at first glance.+

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan-ante » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:36 pm

6. the problem of multiple "la". e.g. A la B means if A, then B; A=>B
what could A la B la C mean? a range of possibilities:
A=>(B=>C)
(A=>B)=>C
(A=>B)&(A=>C)
(A=>C)&(B=>C)
---------
2.
'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja'
it is better without pi. why do we need it?
3. to me A pi B C D is A((BC)D)
5. ijo solution is a good one. one can view a topic as a specific direct object:
mi toki e ni tawa sina lon toki pona e ijo pi toki pona

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jan Ote
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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Ote » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:10 am

jan-ante wrote:6. the problem of multiple "la". e.g. A la B means if A, then B; A=>B
what could A la B la C mean?
I think that multiple 'la' for nested/consecutive if/then clauses shouldn't be allowed. Generally, I would rather avoid multiple 'la'. Except, maybe, when unambiguous, doubtless:
tenpo seli la, tenpo lete la, tenpo suno la, tenpo pimeja la mi olin e sina.

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:56 pm

jan-ante wrote:6. the problem of multiple "la". e.g. A la B means if A, then B; A=>B
what could A la B la C mean? a range of possibilities:
A=>(B=>C)
(A=>B)=>C
(A=>B)&(A=>C)
(A=>C)&(B=>C)
---------


I haven't seen a lot of that, but it is a nice potential problem. Aside from the advice to avoid this like the plague, I can't see much to do, although janOte's use of commas above, seems a part of an answer, as might be allowing 'lala' in some situations (I don't know which, except that it seems natural for nested cases, rather than parallel ones).
2.
'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja'
it is better without pi. why do we need it?

A. The phrase is a right grouped unit within a left grouping, which would ordinarily call for 'pi'
B. It removes an ambiguity (to which I am, admittedly, particularly vulnerable)
3. to me A pi B C D is A((BC)D)


That seems reasonable, but there have been a number of cases where the other grouping seems to have been intended -- and, in any case, the other is clearly a legitimate structure in the grammar.
5. ijo solution is a good one. one can view a topic as a specific direct object:
mi toki e ni tawa sina lon toki pona e ijo pi toki pona


'toki tawa sina kepeken toki pona'

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jan Josan
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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:10 pm

2.
janKipo wrote:
jan-ante wrote:2.'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja'it is better without pi. why do we need it?

A. The phrase is a right grouped unit within a left grouping, which would ordinarily call for 'pi'
B. It removes an ambiguity (to which I am, admittedly, particularly vulnerable)

I think I am still unclear what you are trying to do here. Maybe it's because I can't imagine reading it wrong without the pi. It could be you are thinking about the little devil tawa and ways to distinguish it as a preposition or a modifier, or maybe it would be ambiguous once it is part of a complete sentence. Do you have another example?


5.
I think there has been some question about allowing ijo to represent abstract ideas, or if it should just be reserved for concrete objects. I'm OK with this usage. I don't think it overburdens ijo, and for me defining a concept feels similar to the idea of "objectifying" it.

6.
jan-ante wrote: the problem of multiple "la". e.g. A la B means if A, then B; A=>B
what could A la B la C mean? a range of possibilities:
A=>(B=>C)
(A=>B)=>C
(A=>B)&(A=>C)
(A=>C)&(B=>C)
---------

The only time I have seen this used clearly is with a common time expression, and then a conditional expression:
tempo suno kama la sina kama la mi pilin pona.
I'm note even sure what it would mean with two conditional la phrases-- I think John Clifford may have puzzled this one out before?

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:49 pm

josankapo wrote:2.
janKipo wrote:
jan-ante wrote:2.'jan suli pi tan ma lili Teja'it is better without pi. why do we need it?

A. The phrase is a right grouped unit within a left grouping, which would ordinarily call for 'pi'
B. It removes an ambiguity (to which I am, admittedly, particularly vulnerable)

I think I am still unclear what you are trying to do here. Maybe it's because I can't imagine reading it wrong without the pi. It could be you are thinking about the little devil tawa and ways to distinguish it as a preposition or a modifier, or maybe it would be ambiguous once it is part of a complete sentence. Do you have another example?


From aikidave :
'mi mute li toki e ijo pi tenpo pi pilin pona poka mama mije.'

To be sure, this is a case of type 1 as well, sorta. It helps, perhaps, to know that his father is dead these last ten years,
5.
I think there has been some question about allowing ijo to represent abstract ideas, or if it should just be reserved for concrete objects. I'm OK with this usage. I don't think it overburdens ijo, and for me defining a concept feels similar to the idea of "objectifying" it.


I hadn't thought about that problem, but then the words that I actually said on the subject are physical objects, if evanescent ones.

6.
jan-ante wrote: the problem of multiple "la". e.g. A la B means if A, then B; A=>B
what could A la B la C mean? a range of possibilities:
A=>(B=>C)
(A=>B)=>C
(A=>B)&(A=>C)
(A=>C)&(B=>C)
---------

The only time I have seen this used clearly is with a common time expression, and then a conditional expression:
tempo suno kama la sina kama la mi pilin pona.
I'm note even sure what it would mean with two conditional la phrases-- I think John Clifford may have puzzled this one out before?


I haven't seen -- that I recall -- a case of two 'S la's either, but it is a possibility. Clearly the last two readings jan Ante gives would be handled in tp with two separate sentences in each case, i.e., drop the &. Neither of the first two yields to simplification much: The first is (A & B) => C, but tp can't combine sentences with an "and". The second looks like a natural for 'lala,' but that is not something I feel very happy about altogether. So far, as I said, we seem to have managed to avoid these structures. Keep up the good work!

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jan Josan
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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:02 pm

1. (sitelen, tawa / sitelen tawa)
The more I think about this the more I like it. It seems unobtrusive but clarifying. I'd like to see how people use it and if it proves as useful as it looks.


2.
janKipo wrote:From aikidave :
'mi mute li toki e ijo pi tenpo pi pilin pona poka mama mije.'

To be sure, this is a case of type 1 as well, sorta. It helps, perhaps, to know that his father is dead these last ten years,


So, if I understand you right, you would propose: "mu mute li toki e ijo pi tenpo pi pilin pona pi poka mama mije" so that it is clear that poka modifies pilin pona and not toki, right? It may be a particularly tough example because it has pi twice already, in the illegal pi tenpo pi sandwich, but my inclination is it might make more problems than it solves. I think I would have assumed the modification was directed to the noun phrase and if they were talking next to the father it would have been "mi mute li poka mama mije li toki e ijo pi tenpo pilin pona."

4. tenpo ni la- now / currently (and sometimes, "that time" referring to a previous sentence. This is always tempting for linking simultaneous events, but probably problematic.)

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:48 pm

josankapo wrote:1. (sitelen, tawa / sitelen tawa)
The more I think about this the more I like it. It seems unobtrusive but clarifying. I'd like to see how people use it and if it proves as useful as it looks.


I like it too and I think there are enough bad cases (admittedly mostly with 'tawa' but 'poka' and 'lon' and probably 'tan' too) to make it worthwhile, given its small cost.
2.
janKipo wrote:From aikidave :
'mi mute li toki e ijo pi tenpo pi pilin pona poka mama mije.'

To be sure, this is a case of type 1 as well, sorta. It helps, perhaps, to know that his father is dead these last ten years,


So, if I understand you right, you would propose: "mu mute li toki e ijo pi tenpo pi pilin pona pi poka mama mije" so that it is clear that poka modifies pilin pona and not toki, right? It may be a particularly tough example because it has pi twice already, in the illegal pi tenpo pi sandwich, but my inclination is it might make more problems than it solves. I think I would have assumed the modification was directed to the noun phrase and if they were talking next to the father it would have been "mi mute li poka mama mije li toki e ijo pi tenpo pilin pona."


I used it because I had just read it, so it wasn't sorted to make the case as clear as might be. I like your rephrasing of the the other possibility, though I think the author would insist on 'tenpo pi pilin pona' -- not a good time of feelings, but a time of goods feelings. The first 'pi' is not illegit since it introduces the phrase 'tenpo pi pilin pona,' that is, more than just one word. Of course, repeated 'pi's are to be avoided, but sometimes it is just hard to figure out how on the fly.

4. tenpo ni la- now / currently (and sometimes, "that time" referring to a previous sentence. This is always tempting for linking simultaneous events, but probably problematic.)


Yeah, there is that one, too. The whole time system needs some thought (maybe 'tenpo ni: la' or some such to mark the difference in spoken forms.)

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jan Josan
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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby jan Josan » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:32 am

4.
How clearly would you understand this (in, or at the beginning of a story): tenpo suno wan la... ?

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Re: ijo lili li pakala lili

Postby janKipo » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:55 pm

Out of the blue, I would read it as "on one day" or, maybe, because that looks odd, "for one day." I have seen it, however, as you know, used to mean "on the wedding day," in a context that does support this reading, but also, a fortiori supports the above readings. I don't know a good way to make the better, except, say, 'tenpo suno pi wan mi,' which is odd enough to force a rethink.


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