[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 590: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 646: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 472: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 113: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 113: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 113: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:55 pm

janKipo wrote:'ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni' the grammar puts prepositional phrases modifying the whole after the object 'e ni tawa mama Alulu' but I am not sure how firm that is (few counterexamples, all called into question, and some defended by trying to find a way to introduce prep phrases that modify just noun phrases -- not applicable here)

On 'tawa musi pi toki sitelen kepeken toki pona' blog I found the following comment from a reader

toki tawa [sina ken weka e 'jan'] ona e ni:
pona la 'toki e ni tawa ona'

Now all occurences of the phrase are changed to ... li toki e ni tawa ...
But I've visited ru.wikipedia and found this: jan mije li toki tawa jan sewi li toki e ni: "ona li moli tan seme?".
So, maybe it would be good to express it like this: ona li toki tawa mama sewi Alulu li toki e ni: "...". Simple grammar, no problems, some archaism ("Then Telemachus spoke to him and said..."). On the other hand: ona li toki e ni tawa mama sewi... has educational value for a tp reader. Still hesitating.

*The virtue of the double verb, like your original line, is that it keeps everything close to where it fits in: 'tawa' next to 'toki' and 'ni' next to both 'toki' and the following sentence. As I say, I am not sure how strong the prep phrase at end rule is.

janKipo wrote:'o pali E jan wawa sin.'

In think that you wanted to add or comment something here?

*Just reminding you to put the 'e' in before direct object.


jan-ante wrote:

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala


jan sama pi jan Kikamesi


perhaps you dont need pi after (quasi)prepositions, because they do regrou
ping without pi.

I thought it should be here, because of a rule of grouping:
  jan sama jan Kikamesi = (jan sama jan) Kikamesi
  human-like person [named] Gilgamesh
while:
  jan sama pi jan Kikamesi = (jan sama) (jan Kikamesi)
  person similar to person [named] Gilgamesh (tp idiomatic: brother of Gilgamesh)

*The crucial issue here is whether you can have a prep phrase modifying a noun phrase, i.e., 'jan (sama(jan Kikamasi))' If yes, then you don't need the 'pi' where it is (but may need it before the prep -- I just can't get a handle on this one). If not, then you need both 'pi's: 'jan pi sama pi jan Kikamasi' I think.

jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:38 pm


janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:07 pm

Hmm! I wish I could find a case that was not immediately challenged. I think it should be OK, even if it needs a 'pi' to declare its status (which it may not, of course).

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:41 am


janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:16 pm

I think my first choice would be 2d: 'jan pi sama jan Kikamesi' attaching a prepe phrase to a noun phrase. Failing that, 2+3.

Probably 'jan pi utala soweli' "man who fights animals" , not "beastly soldier" and remember (or become aware of) 'alasa' for "hunt" My inclination (English contact semantics?) is for 'lupa ma suli'. Maybe (for clarity, strength) 'ken tawa weka' "can escape"

If 'lupa ma' then 'nena ma"? Hard to decide, since the two seem to come to the same thing in this latter case.

Question (both answers around): is 'kama' a location verb (really a preposition) like 'tawa' or not? If so, the you don't need 'tawa'; if not, you do. I am inclined toward not and the votes seem to go that way, but ... But 'Uluku', as an adjective, needs a noun to lean on: 'ma tomo'. The old "about" problem: how to say "talk (think, write...) about x"? Your suggestion seems to be as a modifier to 'toki' as verb, a reasonable suggestion indeed. But then the 'pi jana wawa ni' needs to go with the 'toki' and the prep phrase, as usual, go at the end. Ditto for 'e jan soweli' and 'kepeken unpa' (I like this style though).

I would say (assuming I read you aright) 'tawa lon nasin ma supa' "travel on the level road" rather than "to the level road". "for several days just past" or "several days ago"?

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:45 pm


janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:07 pm

Good, 'kama' is out of the 'tawa' class. And now we have "after several days" to add to 'for several days" and "several days ago". The pre-'la' area, at least with 'tenpo' needs some work.

I'm not used to 'alasa' yet either and it may not survive, but if we don't use it, it will not have a chance through no fault of its own and this is the perfect place to use it.

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:52 pm

Let's try to do it without explicit 'after'.

...ona li toki e ni: "jan pi utala soweli o kama jo e meli unpa Sanka pi tomo pi jan sewi. tenpo kama la ona li kepeken nasin meli tawa jan soweli ni. tenpo lili la soweli pi jan ni li tawa weka tan ona".

meli pi tomo pi jan sewi
jan pi utala soweli en jan Sanka li tawa weka. tenpo mute lili la ona li kama tawa ma supa. ona li lon ma pi moku telo li awen. tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. ona li weka e len. ona li pilin e lupa pi jan soweli Enkitu. meli Sanka li unpa pi mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo la ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli pilin ike tawa. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute.

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina li tawa poka soweli tan seme?"

janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:24 pm

Let's try to do it without explicit 'after'.

unpa

jan pi utala SOWELI ['pi' needs two words after it] en jan Sanka li tawa weka.
tenpo mute lili la [this means "several times, frequently" I still don't know who to say "after some time") ona li kama tawa ma supa.
ona li lon ma pi moku telo li awen.["were in the country of wet food"? "paddy?" "were in the country where they drank "springs?"]
tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. ona li weka e len. ["she", I suppose] ona li pilin e lupa ['palisa'? or are we into rimshots already -- I think Enkidu is probably not up for fancy sex]pi jan soweli Enkitu.
meli Sanka li unpa pi [just 'e' I think] mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la [unpromblematic "for many days"] ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo la [unproblematic "at night"] ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la [ptresumably 'when' but not obvious except by context] jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli pilin ike tawa ['ona'?]. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute. [What it says is clear but not what it means "Enkidu thinks he can know/understand/be wise. He comes to Samhat and looks at her front and listens."]

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina li tawa poka soweli tan seme?"

janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:27 pm

Oh, and don't need 'li' after last 'sina'.


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “kama sona toki”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron