jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

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janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:55 pm

janKipo wrote:'ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni' the grammar puts prepositional phrases modifying the whole after the object 'e ni tawa mama Alulu' but I am not sure how firm that is (few counterexamples, all called into question, and some defended by trying to find a way to introduce prep phrases that modify just noun phrases -- not applicable here)

On 'tawa musi pi toki sitelen kepeken toki pona' blog I found the following comment from a reader

toki tawa [sina ken weka e 'jan'] ona e ni:
pona la 'toki e ni tawa ona'

Now all occurences of the phrase are changed to ... li toki e ni tawa ...
But I've visited ru.wikipedia and found this: jan mije li toki tawa jan sewi li toki e ni: "ona li moli tan seme?".
So, maybe it would be good to express it like this: ona li toki tawa mama sewi Alulu li toki e ni: "...". Simple grammar, no problems, some archaism ("Then Telemachus spoke to him and said..."). On the other hand: ona li toki e ni tawa mama sewi... has educational value for a tp reader. Still hesitating.

*The virtue of the double verb, like your original line, is that it keeps everything close to where it fits in: 'tawa' next to 'toki' and 'ni' next to both 'toki' and the following sentence. As I say, I am not sure how strong the prep phrase at end rule is.

janKipo wrote:'o pali E jan wawa sin.'

In think that you wanted to add or comment something here?

*Just reminding you to put the 'e' in before direct object.


jan-ante wrote:

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala


jan sama pi jan Kikamesi


perhaps you dont need pi after (quasi)prepositions, because they do regrou
ping without pi.

I thought it should be here, because of a rule of grouping:
  jan sama jan Kikamesi = (jan sama jan) Kikamesi
  human-like person [named] Gilgamesh
while:
  jan sama pi jan Kikamesi = (jan sama) (jan Kikamesi)
  person similar to person [named] Gilgamesh (tp idiomatic: brother of Gilgamesh)

*The crucial issue here is whether you can have a prep phrase modifying a noun phrase, i.e., 'jan (sama(jan Kikamasi))' If yes, then you don't need the 'pi' where it is (but may need it before the prep -- I just can't get a handle on this one). If not, then you need both 'pi's: 'jan pi sama pi jan Kikamasi' I think.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:38 pm

jak Ote wrote:   jan sama jan Kikamesi = (jan sama jan) Kikamesi
  human-like person [named] Gilgamesh

if sama is a prep (like, as, seem), then it breaks this order. if it is mod (same, similar, equal, of equal status or position), then you need pi. depends on what do you mean. but to me without pi is a better way, because you will avoid confusion with further story, when they become jan sama.

jan Kipo wrote:The crucial issue here is whether you can have a prep phrase modifying a noun phrase, i.e., 'jan (sama(jan Kikamasi))'
well, i cannot give a precise reference, but perhaps i saw this in a complex subject, something like: "nimi "pi" lon monsi pi nimi X li pona ala tawa me". but i dont remember who could write like this??

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:07 pm

Hmm! I wish I could find a case that was not immediately challenged. I think it should be OK, even if it needs a 'pi' to declare its status (which it may not, of course).

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:41 am

janKipo wrote:The crucial issue here is whether you can have a prep phrase modifying a noun phrase, i.e., 'jan (sama(jan Kikamasi))'
I looked up syntax rules in wikipedia and on the forum and haven't found any rule allowing prepositions here.

Which one would you have chosen:
1. "o pali e jan wawa sin.
2a. o pali e jan sama jan Kikamesi.
2b. o pali e jan pi sama pi jan Kikamesi.
2c. o kama e ni: jan ni li sama jan Kikamesi.
3. mi wile e ni: ona li utala e jan Kikamesi.

or:
2+3. mi wile e ni: jan ni li sama jan Kikamesi li ken utala e ona.

old: tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala".
new: tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken pilin ike ala".

----


... jan Enkitu li jan soweli. ona li sona ala e ilo e tomo e jan ante.

jan utala soweli
jan utala soweli li lon ma ni. ona li pali e lupa suli ma. soweli li tawa insa lupa. nasin ni la jan ni li ken kama jo e soweli. jan li pali kin e ilo pi kama jo. ona li kama jo e soweli li moli e ona. taso jan soweli Enkitu li pakala lupa ni en ilo ni. ona li kama e ni: soweli li ken tawa.

jan utala soweli li lukin e jan Enkitu wawa li pilin ike li pilin wawa ala. ona li tawa weka li tawa mama ona. jan utala soweli li toki e ni: "mama o, jan soweli li kama tan ma nena. ona li suli li wawa. jan ala li wawa sama ona. mi pilin ike. ona en soweli li moku e kasi anpa. ona en soweli li moku e telo. tenpo ali la ona li pakala lupa ma mi en ilo mi. mi ken ala kama jo e soweli tan ona".

mama li toki e ni: "jan lili mi o, jan Kikamesi li lon ma tomo Uluku. jan ala li wawa sama ona. o tawa! o kama tawa Uluku. o toki tawa jan Kikamesi pi jan wawa ni. jan Kikamesi li pana e jan unpa Sanka tawa sina. tenpo kama la jan Sanka li anpa kepeken unpa e jan soweli ni".

jan utala soweli li kama tawa ma tomo Uluku. jan Kikamesi li kute e ona li toki e ni: "jan utala soweli o kama jo e meli unpa Sanka pi tomo pi jan sewi. tenpo kama la ona li kepeken nasin meli tawa jan soweli ni. tenpo lili la soweli pi jan ni li tawa weka tan ona".

jan utala soweli en jan Sanka li tawa nasin ma supa. tenpo suno mute lili pini la ona li lon ma ni.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:16 pm

I think my first choice would be 2d: 'jan pi sama jan Kikamesi' attaching a prepe phrase to a noun phrase. Failing that, 2+3.

Probably 'jan pi utala soweli' "man who fights animals" , not "beastly soldier" and remember (or become aware of) 'alasa' for "hunt" My inclination (English contact semantics?) is for 'lupa ma suli'. Maybe (for clarity, strength) 'ken tawa weka' "can escape"

If 'lupa ma' then 'nena ma"? Hard to decide, since the two seem to come to the same thing in this latter case.

Question (both answers around): is 'kama' a location verb (really a preposition) like 'tawa' or not? If so, the you don't need 'tawa'; if not, you do. I am inclined toward not and the votes seem to go that way, but ... But 'Uluku', as an adjective, needs a noun to lean on: 'ma tomo'. The old "about" problem: how to say "talk (think, write...) about x"? Your suggestion seems to be as a modifier to 'toki' as verb, a reasonable suggestion indeed. But then the 'pi jana wawa ni' needs to go with the 'toki' and the prep phrase, as usual, go at the end. Ditto for 'e jan soweli' and 'kepeken unpa' (I like this style though).

I would say (assuming I read you aright) 'tawa lon nasin ma supa' "travel on the level road" rather than "to the level road". "for several days just past" or "several days ago"?

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:45 pm

I avoid 'alasa' intentionally. It's a new word, and in my opinion it's too insignificant to include it to the official dictionary.

'jan pi utala soweli', 'lupa ma suli' and 'ken tawa weka' -- you're right.

janKipo wrote:is 'kama' a location verb (really a preposition) like 'tawa' or not? If so, the you don't need 'tawa'; if not, you do.
The last lesson from the old manual says:
o kama tawa tomo toki pi toki pona


janKipo wrote:'Uluku', as an adjective, needs a noun to lean on: 'ma tomo'.
Oops, an oversight.

janKipo wrote:But then the 'pi jana wawa ni' needs to go with the 'toki' and the prep phrase, as usual, go at the end.
Right, thank you. I have to get used to put prep phase always at the end.

janKipo wrote:I would say (assuming I read you aright) 'tawa lon nasin ma supa' "travel on the level road"
Thanks to your translations I know whether my text is properly understood; if not, then it's not good. Like the last two sentences. I meant: "The trapper and Shamhat travelled towards 'ma supa', a plain, where animals and Enkidu lived. After a few days they were on the plain (arrived)." I don't know why I put 'lon nasin(?)' there, I cant see any sense in it now.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:07 pm

Good, 'kama' is out of the 'tawa' class. And now we have "after several days" to add to 'for several days" and "several days ago". The pre-'la' area, at least with 'tenpo' needs some work.

I'm not used to 'alasa' yet either and it may not survive, but if we don't use it, it will not have a chance through no fault of its own and this is the perfect place to use it.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:52 pm

Let's try to do it without explicit 'after'.

...ona li toki e ni: "jan pi utala soweli o kama jo e meli unpa Sanka pi tomo pi jan sewi. tenpo kama la ona li kepeken nasin meli tawa jan soweli ni. tenpo lili la soweli pi jan ni li tawa weka tan ona".

meli pi tomo pi jan sewi
jan pi utala soweli en jan Sanka li tawa weka. tenpo mute lili la ona li kama tawa ma supa. ona li lon ma pi moku telo li awen. tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. ona li weka e len. ona li pilin e lupa pi jan soweli Enkitu. meli Sanka li unpa pi mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo la ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli pilin ike tawa. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute.

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina li tawa poka soweli tan seme?"

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:24 pm

Let's try to do it without explicit 'after'.

unpa

jan pi utala SOWELI ['pi' needs two words after it] en jan Sanka li tawa weka.
tenpo mute lili la [this means "several times, frequently" I still don't know who to say "after some time") ona li kama tawa ma supa.
ona li lon ma pi moku telo li awen.["were in the country of wet food"? "paddy?" "were in the country where they drank "springs?"]
tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. ona li weka e len. ["she", I suppose] ona li pilin e lupa ['palisa'? or are we into rimshots already -- I think Enkidu is probably not up for fancy sex]pi jan soweli Enkitu.
meli Sanka li unpa pi [just 'e' I think] mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la [unpromblematic "for many days"] ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo la [unproblematic "at night"] ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la [ptresumably 'when' but not obvious except by context] jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli pilin ike tawa ['ona'?]. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute. [What it says is clear but not what it means "Enkidu thinks he can know/understand/be wise. He comes to Samhat and looks at her front and listens."]

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina li tawa poka soweli tan seme?"

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:27 pm

Oh, and don't need 'li' after last 'sina'.


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