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sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja - Page 4 - Toki Pona Forums

sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Tinkerers Anonymous: Some people can't help making changes to "fix" Toki Pona. This is a playground for their ideas.
Tokiponidistoj: Iuj homoj nepre volas fari ŝanĝojn por "ripari" Tokiponon. Jen ludejo por iliaj ideoj.
janKipo
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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:32 am

To sum up (I think):
We will continue to call them 'nanpa suli' regardless of suspicions about the literal correctness of the expression (but most idioms -- indeed compound expressions -- are not literally correct, else they would be a lot longer).

For the main remaining use of numerals, it would be nice to have a set of proper adjectives for reading them (the letters, too). I would say, just read them in your own language except that we are not any longer mutually intelligible, so make them up out of some simple stock or a priori.

The basic ideas of the tp numbers are unity (wholeness, integrity), divisibility (separateness), and frisibility (shattered, crumbled, spread about). If 'nanpa wan' can refer to the number one, and 'nanpa tu' to two, then 'nanpa mute' can refer to any number for than two. But all of these expressions, while legitimate, are ill-advised since they give rise to more likely readings in all but very special contexts. In any case, 'nanpa x' is probably not a good way to quantify a noun phrase, since it would clearly have an ordinal meaning before it had a cardinal one (in non-specialized contexts). (Also, it seems to require 'pi' for the cardinal use, while ordinary cardinals are automatically right grouping. Ah, but 'nanpa x' as an ordinal is also automatically right grouping, so there is a disambiguator.)

All of this last is largely irrelevant since tp is designed to wean away from all those big numbers to things we can really deal with and regular ways top deal with them.

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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby jan-ante » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:36 pm


rdmiller3
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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby rdmiller3 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:36 pm


janKipo
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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:17 pm

It always a bad idea to take words like '"noun" too seriously when talking about tp. It's better to talk about roles or functions or doings. So a word nouns or performs a nominal function at the beginning of a sentence (ignoring 'taso' and 'la' with all before it and 'o' and probably some other things) and after 'e' and after prepositions (even when they are verbing in some cases) and often after 'pi'. A word verbs or serves a predicate function (in this case, this is clearly better) when it comes directly after 'li'. A word modifies (is a modifier, serves and adjectival/adverbial function) when it is to the right of a developing nouning (i.e. a nouning word with no or some modifiers to its right). There are some odd cases, of which 'nanpa' is the clearest (after the number words themselves) where 'pi' is not needed to make a right grouping, so that you could call 'nanpa' in 'ijo nanpa wan' a noun (after an implicit 'pi') or a modifier (after a noun). Take your pick--except it may make a difference: 'ijo nanpa wan' also means, inter alia, "one numerical thingie" and "a whole (intact) numerical thingie" in both of which cases 'nanpa' is clearly a modifier

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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby rdmiller3 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:36 pm

jan Kipo,

In your last post you claim that "nanpa" doesn't need "pi" to create a grouping, and then you go on and interpret the example as though it were not a group. It looks as though you're contradicting yourself. What exactly are you trying to say?

Please show a few straightforward examples and say exactly what you're trying to point out with each one.

Personally, I don't agree that "nanpa" introduces a group of words. I don't buy into the "implicit pi" which you mention.

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jan Ote
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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby jan Ote » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:18 am


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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:44 am


jan-ante
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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:37 pm


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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:46 pm

A warning. There is more about the words in tp than you will find on the official site or even on the quasi-official ones. In fact, the use of 'nanpa' as a transitive verb is in at least one version of the official list, as is the ordinal usage. The use of both is in the corpus, though not with a lot of appearances (neither is something people have had a lot of occasions to say, I suppose).

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Re: sin pi toki nanpa tan jan Sonja

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:57 pm



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