mi sona ale li toki pona

[Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza]

...which, if I said it right, should mean "I don't know how to speak well." Notsure how I would say "...in the language Toki Pona."In any case...Toki!I'm picking up the language at the moment, just completing the lessons. I had agrammar question though (I'm sure I'll have more... hopefully that's okay forthis forum...)In lesson 11, we learn that you can say sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? How didyou make this?...but, could you also saysina pali seme e niYou made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you make this- I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.Also...ma li pona lukin tawa mi"the countryside is good looking to me"...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspectof the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples ofwhich sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?and one more for the moment...mi mute li pali e wili mi mute tan ken mi mute...we do what we must because we can -?Thanks!~XavierPS: Moderator, I answered my previous question, so you don't need to post it tothe group. Thank you.

[jan_sewe]

--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, "Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza" <xavieram@...> wrote:>> ...which, if I said it right, should mean "I don't know how to speak well."Not sure how I would say "...in the language Toki Pona.">According to what you really mean, there are several possibilities:mi sona ala e ali pi toki pona (I don't know everything about TP)mi ken ala toki pona lon toki pona (I can't speak well in TP)mi sona pona ala e toki pona (I don't know TP well)> In lesson 11, we learn that you can say>> sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? Howdid you make this?>> ...but, could you also say>> sina pali seme e ni>> You made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?>> Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you makethis - I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.>The sentence "sina pali seme e ni" doesn't really mean "How did you make this?"but rather "What did you make with this?". "kepeken nasin seme" is actually thebest translation of "how". I sometimes use "sama seme" (like what) but it's notas clear.>> Also...>> ma li pona lukin tawa mi>> "the countryside is good looking to me">> ...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspectof the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples ofwhich sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?>"ma li pona lukin tawa mi" is good Toki Pona, but it will be heard with theintended meaning "the countryside is good looking to me" only if you're indeedwatching the coutryside, or if there's a picture of it above your text, or ifyou've already been speaking about the coutryside, and so on. In Toki Pona it'sthe context that makes the meaning. Adding a precision like "ma ni" can beusefull, if not indispensable.You have to split your sentence up when it's too complicated to be expressedwithout a la-clause. And if it still remains too complicated, then just try tosay the same thing in a simpler way.The syntax "ilo ni li pi sina" is a clever invention of jan Pije's, but I'm notsure many of us do use it actually. Most of the time, TP will force you to speakmore directly.

[John E Clifford]

Well, 'sina pali seme e ni' doesn't seem to mean 'What did you make with this'since 'seme' is not the object of 'pali' but rather a modifier ('ni' is theobject, see the 'e'). So it means something like 'You made this whatly' whereany adverb might be the appropriate answer. That is, it means 'How did you makethis' in the broadest sense' where answers like 'well' or 'expensively' etc.might do. 'kepeken nasin seme' apparently would limit the scope some what: to'by hand' or 'on a lathe' or some such. (I'm not sure this is literally true,since 'well' is a way of soing things after all, but I think the convention isas I lay it out here. 'kepeken ilo seme' is even more restrictive, surely.)The various renditions of 'I don't know how to speak well in tp' seem right,though I would use 'kepeken' rather than 'lon' -- but jan Sonja goes the otherway. I would probably cut to the chase and just say 'mi toki pona ala kepekentoki pona' (the 'know how to' seems a frill and tp is unfrilly).The remarks here about the vagueness of 'ma ni li pona lukin tawa mi' make apoint always to keep in mind -- namely, that context always plays a central rolein understanding a tp utterance. In tis case, 'ma' covers everything from thewhole planet to a clod, so getting it down to the present view is hard in asingle sentence.I am wary of 'pi' as a verb/predicate adjective maker. I woulld probably say --if I were thinking -- 'ni li ilo pi mi' and just avoid the problem.'mi mute li pali e wile mi mute tan ken mi mute' looks overly complex, but thehypothetical form, 'mi ken pali e ijo la mi wile pali e ni,' don't seem to saythe same thing, which seems clearly to require that I do want/have to do it. So, 'mi wile pali e ijo li ken pali e ni. tan ni la mi pali e ni' is better,but still conmplex. I would use 'mi mute li wile pali e ijo tan ni: mi mute liken pali e ijo ni.' (the original also misses the mark some what, sayingsomething like 'we make our necessity because of our ability,' whatever thatmeans -- I'm pretty sure it is not what anyone intended)________________________________From: jan_sewe <serge.g@laposte.net>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:36:33 AMSubject: [tokipona] Re: mi sona ale li toki pona--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, "Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza" <xavieram@.. .>wrote:>> ...which, if I said it right, should mean "I don't know how to speak well."Not sure how I would say "...in the language Toki Pona.">According to what you really mean, there are several possibilities:mi sona ala e ali pi toki pona (I don't know everything about TP)mi ken ala toki pona lon toki pona (I can't speak well in TP)mi sona pona ala e toki pona (I don't know TP well)> In lesson 11, we learn that you can say>> sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? Howdid you make this?>> ...but, could you also say>> sina pali seme e ni>> You made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?>> Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you makethis - I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.>The sentence "sina pali seme e ni" doesn't really mean "How did you make this?"but rather "What did you make with this?". "kepeken nasin seme" is actually thebest translation of "how". I sometimes use "sama seme" (like what) but it's notas clear.>> Also...>> ma li pona lukin tawa mi>> "the countryside is good looking to me">> ...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspectof the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples ofwhich sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?>"ma li pona lukin tawa mi" is good Toki Pona, but it will be heard with theintended meaning "the countryside is good looking to me" only if you're indeedwatching the coutryside, or if there's a picture of it above your text, or ifyou've already been speaking about the coutryside, and so on. In Toki Pona it'sthe context that makes the meaning. Adding a precision like "ma ni" can beusefull, if not indispensable.You have to split your sentence up when it's too complicated to be expressedwithout a la-clause. And if it still remains too complicated, then just try tosay the same thing in a simpler way.The syntax "ilo ni li pi sina" is a clever invention of jan Pije's, but I'm notsure many of us do use it actually. Most of the time, TP will force you to speakmore directly.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John E Clifford]

Oops! just 'ni li ilo mi' ('pi' needs two words after it -- another problemwith the predicative 'pi').________________________________From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Friday, May 15, 2009 9:57:05 AMSubject: Re: [tokipona] Re: mi sona ale li toki ponaWell, 'sina pali seme e ni' doesn't seem to mean 'What did you make with this'since 'seme' is not the object of 'pali' but rather a modifier ('ni' is theobject, see the 'e'). So it means something like 'You made this whatly' whereany adverb might be the appropriate answer. That is, it means 'How did you makethis' in the broadest sense' where answers like 'well' or 'expensively' etc.might do. 'kepeken nasin seme' apparently would limit the scope some what: to'by hand' or 'on a lathe' or some such. (I'm not sure this is literally true,since 'well' is a way of soing things after all, but I think the convention isas I lay it out here. 'kepeken ilo seme' is even more restrictive, surely.)The various renditions of 'I don't know how to speak well in tp' seem right,though I would use 'kepeken' rather than 'lon' -- but jan Sonja goes the otherway. I would probably cut to the chase and just say 'mi toki pona ala kepekentoki pona' (the 'know how to' seems a frill and tp is unfrilly).The remarks here about the vagueness of 'ma ni li pona lukin tawa mi' make apoint always to keep in mind -- namely, that context always plays a central rolein understanding a tp utterance. In tis case, 'ma' covers everything from thewhole planet to a clod, so getting it down to the present view is hard in asingle sentence.I am wary of 'pi' as a verb/predicate adjective maker. I woulld probably say --if I were thinking -- 'ni li ilo pi mi' and just avoid the problem.'mi mute li pali e wile mi mute tan ken mi mute' looks overly complex, but thehypothetical form, 'mi ken pali e ijo la mi wile pali e ni,' don't seem to saythe same thing, which seems clearly to require that I do want/have to do it. So, 'mi wile pali e ijo li ken pali e ni. tan ni la mi pali e ni' is better,but still conmplex. I would use 'mi mute li wile pali e ijo tan ni: mi mute liken pali e ijo ni.' (the original also misses the mark some what, sayingsomething like 'we make our necessity because of our ability,' whatever thatmeans -- I'm pretty sure it is not what anyone intended)____________ _________ _________ __From: jan_sewe <serge.g@laposte. net>To: tokipona@yahoogroup s.comSent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:36:33 AMSubject: [tokipona] Re: mi sona ale li toki pona--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, "Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza" <xavieram@.. .>wrote:>> ...which, if I said it right, should mean "I don't know how to speak well."Not sure how I would say "...in the language Toki Pona.">According to what you really mean, there are several possibilities:mi sona ala e ali pi toki pona (I don't know everything about TP)mi ken ala toki pona lon toki pona (I can't speak well in TP)mi sona pona ala e toki pona (I don't know TP well)> In lesson 11, we learn that you can say>> sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? Howdid you make this?>> ...but, could you also say>> sina pali seme e ni>> You made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?>> Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you makethis - I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.>The sentence "sina pali seme e ni" doesn't really mean "How did you make this?"but rather "What did you make with this?". "kepeken nasin seme" is actually thebest translation of "how". I sometimes use "sama seme" (like what) but it's notas clear.>> Also...>> ma li pona lukin tawa mi>> "the countryside is good looking to me">> ...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspectof the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples ofwhich sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?>"ma li pona lukin tawa mi" is good Toki Pona, but it will be heard with theintended meaning "the countryside is good looking to me" only if you're indeedwatching the coutryside, or if there's a picture of it above your text, or ifyou've already been speaking about the coutryside, and so on. In Toki Pona it'sthe context that makes the meaning. Adding a precision like "ma ni" can beusefull, if not indispensable.You have to split your sentence up when it's too complicated to be expressedwithout a la-clause. And if it still remains too complicated, then just try tosay the same thing in a simpler way.The syntax "ilo ni li pi sina" is a clever invention of jan Pije's, but I'm notsure many of us do use it actually. Most of the time, TP will force you to speakmore directly.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed]