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toki! mi jan Kaja - Toki Pona Forums

toki! mi jan Kaja

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jan Kaja
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toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Kaja » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:22 pm

toki! nimi mi li Kaja. mi sin! taso tenpo mute la mi kama sona e toki pona. toki pona mi li pona anu seme? mi lon ma Mewika. mi toki e toki Inli e toki Epanja. tenpo ni la mi kama sona e toki Sonko e toki Epelanto. ni li pona tawa mi: mi lukin e lipu. sitelen en toki en kama sona li pona kin tawa mi.

mi wile e ni: tenpo suno ni li pona mute tawa sina ali! mi tawa!

jan Lopata
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Lopata » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:51 am

jan Kaja o: toki!

mi jan Lopata.
sama e sina la mi sin. ni li toki pana mi nanpa wan.

tenpo suno lili la mi kama sona e toki pona.
mi sin tawa toki pona! mi wile kama sona e toki pona mute.
toki pona sina li lukin pona tawa mi.
taso mi sona ala e ni: toki pona sina li pona anu pakala.
mi sona ala e ni: toki pona mi li pona anu pakala!
mi sona ala e ni: mi kepeken pona ala pona e nimi lili pi toki pona.
o kepeken, o kepeken! kepeken li pali e pona!

mi kama tan Nusilan.
sama e sina la mi toki mute e toki Inli.
mi sona lili e toki Tosi.
tenpo pini sike suno mute la mi kama sona lili e toki Epelanto.
tenpo ni la mi sona e nimi wan pi toki Epelanto. ona li lon e 'diris'.

mi wile e ni: tenpo suno pona tawa sina!

mi tawa!

jan Lopata
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Lopata » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:15 am

...mi kama tan ma Nusilan!

ma Nusilan li nimi ante e ma Atelola. ona li nimi e ni tawa jan tenpo wan pi ma Nusilan.
jan tenpo wan pi ma Atelola-Nusilan li nimi e jan Mali.

ma Nusilan li jo toki lawa toki tu. ona li lon e toki Mali en toki luka Nusilan.
toki Inli li toki lawa toki ala tawa ma Nuslian taso jan ali mute li toki kepeken e toki Inli.
toki lawa toki pi ma Nusilan li sitelen kepeken e sitelen toki Inli!

ni li nasa ala nasa?

mi tawa!

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby janKipo » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:24 pm

prob just ‘lon (ma) Nusilan’ since you haven’t gone anywhere.
‘nimi ante pi ma Atelola’, not a verb-object construction here. “Aoteoroa’ is open to a number of tp versionss, though yours is not an ovious one . The simplest is probably ‘A(jo)telowa“
They named this for one time people of New Zealand”? Who did the naming. whhat did they name and what people id they name it for? New Zealand was name for the Dutch province of Zeeland, was named by LaMaire and was named for a place not a people, so I don’t understand the sentence at all.
I think you mean "first people” ‘jan nanpa wan’
so ‘jan nanpa wa pi Atelola(?)-Nusialn li jan Mali (maybe ‘Majoli’?) . Thye didn’t name anyting of interest here.(your sentence say “they named the Maori.”(I suppose you mean 'nimi ona li Mali(?)’
‘jo e toki lawa tu’ (what does the second ‘toki’ do? But the first ‘toki’ is the object of ‘jo’ so gets an ‘e’. ‘ona li toki Mali li toki Nusilan’. ‘lon. e’ would have ‘ona’ (which seems to refer back to the language) creating the languages. not sure what ‘luka’ does here since ‘toki luka’ is either “five languages”, which is too many for the context or sign language, which does fit as a principal language. Since the languages are the predicates here, each gets an separate ‘li’, not an ‘en’.
I can’t figure out ’the next sentence: “English is not the principal language for talking for New Zealand but very all people speak causing the use of English” (the last is easy : ‘kepeken” is a preposition and so does not take ‘e’)
again, I don’t get the second ’toki’ and the language doesn’t write so the sentence is backward. ’sitelen pi toki Inli.’
’nasa’ but many familiar error. some , however, I don’t get at all.
I think you mean to say
mi jan pi ma Nusilan
Nusilan li nimi ante pi ma Atelola(?). jan nanpa wan pi ma Ateloloa li nimi e ona. jan ni li Mali.
Nusilan jo e toki lawa tu. ona li toiki Mali li toki Nusilan. toki Nusilan li toki Inli. jan ali poka li toki kepeken ona.

jan Lopata
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Lopata » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:52 am

jan Kipo o, toki!

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm loathe to hijack jan Kaja's thread, but since you've gone to the effort, let's see if we can get this straight.

I'm sure I have got the construction wrong in places, so much so perhaps that I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say, which in turn means (I think) that you have miscorrected it.

First up, thank you for clearing up the difference between 'kama lon' and 'kama tan' for me (I think). If I have this right then, mi kama lon ma Nusilan li kama tan ma Alan. (I hope I got that right - I live in New Zealand, but was born in Northern Ireland - I guess the 'tan' could use a 'tenpo...' clause there for greater clarity.) And is it 'kama lon' or just 'li lon', or I suppose just 'lon' with 'mi'?

ma Nusilan li nimi ante e ma Atelola ==> ma Nusilan li nimi ante pi ma Atelowa.

I struggled with which particle was appropriate, here. I intended to say, 'New Zealand is also called Aotearoa'. Given that, is the construction still wrong? I suspect perhaps I should have left out the second 'ma'.

I read your 'pi' version as 'New Zealand is another name for Aotearoa' - which, while essentially equivalent, is not quite the same thing. I guess though, that if I'm reading your tp correctly, I should have said 'Atelowa li nimi ante pi Nusilan'? I did consider that, but it kind of telegraphs the punchline, as it were. Sometimes language rules make that unavoidable, I guess.

'Atelowa' is better, thanks, but definitely without the 'jo' - 'Ao' is a diphthong like 'ow', not 'ayo' (except in that Split Enz song, where the 'yo' is inserted for the sake of musicality).

ona li nimi e ni tawa jan tenpo wan pi ma Nusilan.

Yes, first people, thank you for the correction there.
What I intended was 'It (New Zealand) is named this (Aotearoa) by the first people of New Zealand'. Again, I struggled with the particles here, so I'm not at all surprised that it doesn't make proper sense in tp.

jan tenpo wan pi ma Atelola-Nusilan li nimi e jan Mali.

Here I intended, 'The first people of Aotearoa-New Zealand are called Maori'.

Again, I considered the obviously correct construction you give, but I wanted to say 'they are called', rather than just saying 'they are'. Can you suggest a correct construction that retains the sense of naming? That may just be a mindset thing that I need to let go. Again, definitely 'Mali' not 'Majoli' as 'ao' is a diphthong.

ma Nusilan li jo toki lawa toki tu.

New Zealand has two official languages.

You're clearly right about the missing 'e', of course. Thinking on it now, perhaps 'toki toki lawa' would have been better? Or perhaps 'toki pi toki lawa'. That's assuming I have 'toki lawa' right as 'law'. Is there a better way of saying this?

ona li lon e toki Mali en toki luka Nusilan.

They (the official languages) are Maori and New Zealand Sign Language.

Given that it appears you were unable to instantiate 'ona' as intended because my previous sentence was bad, it's not surprising this one didn't make sense to you. Given the context, is it any better? I considered 'e ni' or 'la' construction to bolt this onto the previous sentence, but thought I was playing it safe by separating it into two. Clearly I missed the mark.

toki Inli li toki lawa toki ala tawa ma Nuslian taso jan ali mute li toki kepeken e toki Inli.

English is not an official language of New Zealand, but most people speak/communicate using English.

Again, I'm not surprised this is a mess. It seems to me that 'toki lawa toki' needs to be fixed and I evidently missed normal construction for just-about-all people with 'jan ali mute'. kepeken = no 'e' duly noted.

toki lawa toki pi ma Nusilan li sitelen kepeken e sitelen toki Inli!

The language law of New Zealand is written in English.

I've used the same 'toki lawa toki' here for 'law of language' as I did above for 'language of law'. Clearly they can't both be right! Perhaps 'toki lawa pi toki pi ma Nusilan'? (Assuming still that 'toki lawa' is correct for 'law'.) I see now that 'li sitelen' is wrong. 'li lon ...' no, I can't figure it out. How does one do passive voice in tp? Help? (I really need to get my hands on a copy of pu.)

I think I could get closer by turning it around, but again I was aiming to have 'toki Inli' as the punchline and putting it up front would rob it of some of that. Perhaps that's a limitation of tp vs. English? I know English is more flexible in its construction than many languages, so that's not meant as a criticism of tp - just an observation.

ni li nasa ala nasa?

Isn't that crazy?

Should I have used 'ona' instead of 'ni'?

OK, so that's what I meant. Let's see if I can make sense of what your version means:

mi jan pi ma Nusilan

I am a person of New Zealand.

Yes, but I did mean to say 'from' or 'in' rather than 'of', so I think the 'lon' version you give earlier is better. I was deliberately trying to avoid the connotation that I was a native of New Zealand (although I am a citizen).

Nusilan li nimi ante pi ma Atelola(?). jan nanpa wan pi ma Ateloloa li nimi e ona. jan ni li Mali.

New Zealand is another name of/for Aotearoa. The first people of New Zealand call it that. These people are Maori.

Yes, you have grasped the deep semantic content, but not the connotations I was aiming for. Again, it might be a mindset thing that I have to let go of.

Nusilan jo e toki lawa tu. ona li toiki Mali li toki Nusilan. toki Nusilan li toki Inli. jan ali poka li toki kepeken ona.

New Zealand has two principal (high/head) languages(?) They are Maori (language) and New Zealand (language). New Zealand language is English. Most people (is 'jan ali poka' how you say that?) speak/communicate using it (English).

Did I read you right?

mi tawa.

jan Lopata
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Lopata » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:00 am

jan Kaja o, toki!

mi pilin ike e ni: toki mi li utala e linja toki pi sina.

mi wile toki tawa sina.

mi sona e toki pi sina.
sina sona e toki pi mi anu seme?

mi tawa!

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby janKipo » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:20 pm

Sorry, I came in late on this and missed the beginning. so, Kaja o, kama pona. sina sitelen pona kepeken toki pona. taso o lukin e ni: jan li toki e ni: toki kepeken tok Inli (e ante). jan li toki ala e ni: toki e toki Ini (en ante). ante la pona.

tawa Lopata: ‘sama sina la’ (‘sama’ is a preposition and so doesn’t take ‘e’ and a predicate fragment cannot go in a ‘la’ phrase.)
prob ‘tenpo lili pini la’ “a little while ago”. ‘pona lukin’ “good as far as looks go”, usually “beautiful”. but not here. ‘anu’ makes this a question usually so needs a question mark at the end. It is now a statement offering two possibilities. officially ‘kepeken ala kepeken’ (question formed on the thead of the predicate. Yes, usage does help.
dealt with ‘kama tan’’, mainly applicable if you aren’t there (nitpicky, admittedly). ‘toki kepeken’. ona li nimi diris (toki lon tenpo pini) I think the ‘lon’ is there for a copulative “is”, which tp doesn’t have> (guess - wouldn’t have ‘e’ anyhow)
.
So, caught up: I misunderstood a large part of your first messaage because you used some unfamiliar construction. There is nothing wrong with that as long as they are understood, but using old established idions is often useful for smooth reading. If you are going off on your own, you need to set the stage a bit. In this case, the problem phrasess was ’toki lawa toki’ “main language for talking” (where the second ’toki’ is redundant. You apparently meant “the language in which the lawas are promulgated and which are allowed in the courts”. I would have snuck up on this. ‘jan ali poka pi (ma) Nusilan li toki. kepeken (toki) Inli. taso sitelen lawa en pali lawa la jan lawa ken e toki ante tu: toi Mali en toki luka NUsilan’. (It does mean “sign language! It makes sense in this context but not in that of languages in general that everybody speaks. To say there are two principal language and then say that nearly everybody speaks a different one is just odd to read. (That Nuew Zeelnd English is odd to hear is a totally diffrent matter.). This is why the whole seems crazy.
When you are there, you don’t need ‘kama’’, except to report that you came frome elsewhere recently enough for it to be news.
’nimi e’ means “names something” so , since NZ doesn’t do any naming here, the construction is wrong. tp has no passives, so you need a subject:
usually just ‘jan’. ‘jan li nimi e Nusilan kepeken Atelowa’ (or ‘jan li nimi Atelowa e Nusilan’ but that spoils the surprise).
not “one time people’ (‘jan tenpo wan’) but "first people “ or a stock phrase 'jan nanpa wan’) or ‘jan pi tenpo nanpa wan” “earliest people”

again, no passives and, while the first people may have called themselves Maori, this isn’t quite what this say even. You could say that the fist people called themselves Maori: 'jan nanpa wan li nimi e sama kepeken Mali’ or just, the first people were Maori: ‘jan nanpa wan li (jan) Mali’. or even ‘jan li nimi Mali e jan nanpa wan’. People can teh first people Maori” (because that is there name, not implied).

The laws of NZ are written in English no pssives, so ‘kulupu lawa li sitelen e lawa pi Nusilan kepeken sitelen Inli.' or some such.
Well ‘toki lawa’ is unusual for “law”, which starts the whole mess and the fact that this is a lawa about languages is never made clear (though may be implicit various places), so the whole is just a muddle, though the general idea does come through: people speak english but Maori and NZSL have some special status.

"Isn’t this crazy?” is more a comment than a question, so another form might have been more to the point. ‘nasa anu seme?, say.

Lopata sin ‘pi’ requires two words after it so just ‘linja toki sina’ (maybe ‘linja pi toki sina’’, since I’m not sure what you mean.
‘pi sina’ and ‘pi mi’ later both need to lose the ‘pi'

jan Lopata
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby jan Lopata » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:48 am

jan Kipo o, pona!

mi sona e ijo mute pi toki sina.

tenpo kama la mi utala e lawa 'no passives'. toki Inli la mi toki kepeken toki 'passive' mute. tenpo kama la mi wile e toki lawa ante!

mi tawa!

[ed. toki lawa/toki insa - given the context of our conversation, perhaps I should have used the latter.]

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Kaja

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:38 am

tp is a bit murky, so every detail possible needs to be givne. Thus, every sentence needs a agent subject, even if its on “somebody”. It is easy to reproduce passive ine tp , just use the corresponding actives (this get a bit messy with modifiers, but its’s good practice).


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