(If I've miss placed this topic I genuinely didn't mean to.)
Hi guys. I'm new to the forums. My name is Ursidae.
I've written out a segment of a possible toki pona compound word dictionary. This segment is combining all the words in the standard dictionary with the first word "a" or "kin", in order to infer new meanings. My hope is to develop a dictionary matching all the words together, and thus help toki pona become much more precise and literative, without changing anything about the backbone. I made these words with the logography in mind, but I'm sure it can be understood quickly without it. Please tell me what you think. I would love to hear your thoughts.
One of the things I've tried to communicate is that "a" can have several meanings when connected. The attached word is especially notable, or exciting, or threatening. But there's a particular use that I'm particularly happy with. There are two exclamations in tp as I'm sure you know, "a" and "o". I think it can be practical to use those as distinctions in some cases, instead of "pona" and "ike". For instance if you're distinguishing your left and right hand, eye, foot, etc. There are almost no distinction words in the language beyond the "pona/ike" duality. Well you could distinguish your left and right hand by saying "luka-pona" for right and "luka-ike" for left, it'd historically accurate, but only by relying on sinistrality, the idea that being left handed is evil. Thinking of your left hand as bad or "ike" would hardly be healthy. But if you referred to your hands as "luka-kin" left and "luka-o" right, then the concept is communicated more clearly without an implication of moral objection to your hands. ^_^
Also, I've gone ahead and assumed the word "pu" as meaning educational literature, or more aptly, dictionary, so that it has more use than just to refer to the Toki Pona book.
toki-pona pu pi a.
a-a: Surprise.
akesi-a: screaming lizard.
ala-kin: NO! (excamative)
alasa-kin: expedition.
ala-e: eternity.
anpa-kin: devotion.
ante-kin: recognisable.
anu-kin: alternative.
awen-a: immortal.
e-kin: honorific (general, leutenant, principal)
en-a: addition.
esun-a: sale.
ijo-kin: notable object.
ike-a: anger.
ilo-a: murder weapon.
insa-kin: trapped.
jaki-a: poisonous.
jan-a: famous person, VIP.
jelo-a: saturated yellow.
jo-kin: theif.
kala-kin: shark.
kalama-kin: shout.
kama-kin: approaching.
kasi-a: large plant (tree).
ken-a: propability.
kepeken-a: attached to.
kili-a: crops.
kiwen-a: precious gem.
ko-kin: spices and seasoning.
kon-a: gaseous matter.
kule-a: rainbow.
kulupa-a: cult.
kute-a: left ear.
la-kin: however.
lape-a: comatose.
laso-a: saturated blue, green.
lawa-kin: criminal.
len-a: clothing.
lete-kin: frozen.
li-kin: honorific. (Mr. Mrs. Ms. Dr.)
lili-a: microscopic.
linja-kin: construction cable.
lipu-a: "a good book".
loje-a: saturated red.
lon-a: capital (location).
luka-kin: left hand.
lukin-a: left eye.
lupa-kin: wound.
ma-kin: nation.
mama-kin: designer.
mani-a: wealthy.
meli-a: mother.
mi-a: myself.
mije-kin: father.
moku-a: choke.
moli-a: murder.
monsi-a: hidden.
mu-kin: animal call.
mun-a: satelite.
musi-a: beautiful.
mute-a: uncountable.
nampa-kin: numeric.
nasa-kin: clinicly insane.
nasin-a: bias.
nena-kin: mountain range.
ni-kin: these, them.
nimi-a: nick name.
naka-kin: left foot.
a-o: uh-oh!
olin-a: adore.
ona-kin: him, her.
open-a: distended.
pakala-kin: unrepairable.
pali-a: consequence.
palisa-kin: support beam.
pan-a: wheat crop.
pana-kin: to loose.
pi-kin: fraction.
pilin-a: emotional.
pimeja-kin: ink.
pini-a: stop.
pipi-a: poisonous insect.
poka-kin: far away from.
poki-a: trap.
pona-kin: joyous.
pu-kin: excited to Learn.
sama-kin: indistinguishable.
seli-a: uncontrolled fire.
selo-a: cage.
seme-a: denial.
sewi-a: magic.
sijelo-a: corpse.
sike-a: disc.
namako-a: unborn.
sina-kin: yourself.
sinpin-a: facial expression.
sitelen-a: painting.
sona-kin: genius.
soweli-a: pet.
suli-a: macroscopic.
suno-a: star.
supa-kin: chair.
suwi-a: adorable.
tan-a: consequently.
taso-a: isolated.
tawa-kin: running.
telo-a: drown.
tenpo-a: right now.
toki-a: linguistic.
tomo-a: home.
tu-kin: double.
unpa-kin: orgasm.
uta-kin: kiss.
utala-kin: game.
walo-a: white-out.
wan-a: single, solitary.
waso-a: fly.
wawa-a: invincible.
weka-kin: invisible.
wile-a: need.
Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Ursidae,
Hi! I'm new here as well.
I think pu is pretended to be kept as is, to save a bunch of words —i.e., not necessary information— when composing sentences. It's even funnier in speech!
You know: mi pu! Done.
Just my thoughts, of course.
pona tawa sina!
Hi! I'm new here as well.
I've just begun to do the same thing. I have a draft in Google Drive. I will share it here whenever it be more completed.Ursidae14 wrote: My hope is to develop a dictionary matching all the words together, and thus help toki pona become much more precise and literative, without changing anything about the backbone.
In my very personal opinion, I think it'd still be confusing. I mean, the use of the wovel o in that context.Ursidae14 wrote:if you referred to your hands as "luka-kin" left and "luka-o" right, then the concept is communicated more clearly
My draft is titled lipu nimi pi toki pona, which literally means The Book Of Words Of Toki Pona. And what's a "Book Of Words" in essence? A dictionary.Ursidae14 wrote:Also, I've gone ahead and assumed the word "pu" as meaning educational literature, or more aptly, dictionary, so that it has more use than just to refer to the Toki Pona book.
I think pu is pretended to be kept as is, to save a bunch of words —i.e., not necessary information— when composing sentences. It's even funnier in speech!
You know: mi pu! Done. Just my thoughts, of course.
pona tawa sina!
sina toki kepeken toki Epanja la, sina kama pona tawa e kulupu lon ilo Telekan a!
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Three comments.
1. As a matter of experience, making up idioms out of context is not very useful. What looks good in theory usually doesn’t work so well in the rush of context and something more apt will turn up in the moment of need. However, the discussions in these howjasay sessions sometimes clarify other things than the principal point,so are not a waste of time -- just often not the use intended.
2. At the other extreme of generality, the chirality problems is solved and has been for some time: left side/hand is ‘poka/luka open’ and right is correspondingly ‘pini’. This gives fixed words without any sort of basis that can be taken as disparaging. or that relies on physical generalities with numerous exceptions (‘pona’ v ‘ike’, say, or ‘pili’ v ‘pilin ala’). There is an easy physical left-right distinction, the curl of the fingers in the fist: clockwise in the left, but there is no good way to express it in tp (we don’t know anything about ilo tenpo and we can’t tell honeysuckle from bindweed). So we stick to a cultural univeral for tp culture: the language is written from left to right (the language, not codes for it which go every which way), so start , ‘open’, on the f
left and end, ‘pini’, on the right.
3. As for the program here, ‘a’ and ‘kin’ seem to be the least likely useful words for compounds, given there actual usage. ‘a’ is the word used for whatever sound a person makes to express whatever emotion. So it has very little concrete meaning except perhaps “emotional intensity” (but not even that, since it works for sighs of calm contentment as well as anything intense). It does get used as a noun for “exclamation” and a verb “exclaim”, It is also used to mark some expressions, mainly noun phrases, as interjections of some sort, usually vaguely optative or even imperative. None of this seems to justify some of the meanings you assign too compounds.
Much the same holds for ‘kin’ (I’m assuming that it is different from ‘a’). Some few obvious cases are just normal usage and not compounds in a normal sense. the compounds don’t generally works, since ‘kin’ is particularly context sensitive: It means that the preceding word is to be taken as stressed above the normal level (for its position in a sentence), to be emphasized, in short. There are roughly four reasons for emphasis (with some subcases, perhaps).
1. Strong emotion, which is related to ‘a’, somewhat, though the two words rarely overlaps even here. So ‘ala kin’ as “NO!” is just normal use, not a compound (and one of the clearest cases of this use).
2. Corrective, to correct a just made error. The most common is probably ‘’li’ kin’ to point out an omitted (or, occasionally, an illegitimate inserted) occurrence of ‘li’. But it can be used for any correction ‘mi tawa ma tomo Paki’ ‘Loma kin’.
3. A relevant addition to a claim: ‘jan Tan li tawa ma tomo Paki’ ‘mi kin’ “Tom is going to Paris. “ “Me, too."
4. A relevant variation on a claim ‘’jan Tan li tawa ma toko Paki’ ‘mi Loma kin’ “Tom is going to Paris” “And I’m going to Rome”
This variety of uses leads to the diversity of the one more or less off-course use of ‘kin’, before ‘la’ rather than after a word. It can easily mean “moreover, in addition” form use 3 or 4, but also “on the contrary” from. sense 2. All of these are very context sensitive and so do not lend themselves well to general definitional uses.
1. As a matter of experience, making up idioms out of context is not very useful. What looks good in theory usually doesn’t work so well in the rush of context and something more apt will turn up in the moment of need. However, the discussions in these howjasay sessions sometimes clarify other things than the principal point,so are not a waste of time -- just often not the use intended.
2. At the other extreme of generality, the chirality problems is solved and has been for some time: left side/hand is ‘poka/luka open’ and right is correspondingly ‘pini’. This gives fixed words without any sort of basis that can be taken as disparaging. or that relies on physical generalities with numerous exceptions (‘pona’ v ‘ike’, say, or ‘pili’ v ‘pilin ala’). There is an easy physical left-right distinction, the curl of the fingers in the fist: clockwise in the left, but there is no good way to express it in tp (we don’t know anything about ilo tenpo and we can’t tell honeysuckle from bindweed). So we stick to a cultural univeral for tp culture: the language is written from left to right (the language, not codes for it which go every which way), so start , ‘open’, on the f
left and end, ‘pini’, on the right.
3. As for the program here, ‘a’ and ‘kin’ seem to be the least likely useful words for compounds, given there actual usage. ‘a’ is the word used for whatever sound a person makes to express whatever emotion. So it has very little concrete meaning except perhaps “emotional intensity” (but not even that, since it works for sighs of calm contentment as well as anything intense). It does get used as a noun for “exclamation” and a verb “exclaim”, It is also used to mark some expressions, mainly noun phrases, as interjections of some sort, usually vaguely optative or even imperative. None of this seems to justify some of the meanings you assign too compounds.
Much the same holds for ‘kin’ (I’m assuming that it is different from ‘a’). Some few obvious cases are just normal usage and not compounds in a normal sense. the compounds don’t generally works, since ‘kin’ is particularly context sensitive: It means that the preceding word is to be taken as stressed above the normal level (for its position in a sentence), to be emphasized, in short. There are roughly four reasons for emphasis (with some subcases, perhaps).
1. Strong emotion, which is related to ‘a’, somewhat, though the two words rarely overlaps even here. So ‘ala kin’ as “NO!” is just normal use, not a compound (and one of the clearest cases of this use).
2. Corrective, to correct a just made error. The most common is probably ‘’li’ kin’ to point out an omitted (or, occasionally, an illegitimate inserted) occurrence of ‘li’. But it can be used for any correction ‘mi tawa ma tomo Paki’ ‘Loma kin’.
3. A relevant addition to a claim: ‘jan Tan li tawa ma tomo Paki’ ‘mi kin’ “Tom is going to Paris. “ “Me, too."
4. A relevant variation on a claim ‘’jan Tan li tawa ma toko Paki’ ‘mi Loma kin’ “Tom is going to Paris” “And I’m going to Rome”
This variety of uses leads to the diversity of the one more or less off-course use of ‘kin’, before ‘la’ rather than after a word. It can easily mean “moreover, in addition” form use 3 or 4, but also “on the contrary” from. sense 2. All of these are very context sensitive and so do not lend themselves well to general definitional uses.
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Thank you KNTRO and janKipo for giving me a chance. I really appreciate the feedback.
KNTRO:
I'd love to see your version of this project, of course all my definitions are pending and broad in their own sense.
I understand that my stated "a" and "o" distinction is not needed in this case now, because it's solved by luka-open and luka-pini, but I still feel all toki pona words can be compounded with all others to create a new meaning.
janKipo:
1. I absolutely stand by that these compounds should NOT be the main way of communicating at all. A person should always be encouraged to learn to think in the pure language well before they even learn about compounding. My thought is that compound words can be used to easily relay more literative but still uniquely toki pona concepts for an Author to use. It's very easy after all to get lost juggling only 120 words when trying to write a book. And I believe a full novel could be written in toki pona without sacrificing the innate simplicity and broadity of the language.
2. I concede you are correct about left and right. I suppose that can be communicated with open and pini.
3. I used "a" as the subject because it's the first word. I meant to systematically pair all words with all the words starting at the first one and going forward. I'm working on the "akesi" page, where are the words are modified to refer to reptiles in some way. It's not easy. But it's my thought that without breaking the rhythm of toki pona, compound word systems can be built, and thus every single individual word in the dictionary have another 120 words about itself with the use of compoundsd.
Thank you for explaining to me in more depth how toki pona can be used. I will remember this information for future use.
KNTRO:
I'd love to see your version of this project, of course all my definitions are pending and broad in their own sense.
I understand that my stated "a" and "o" distinction is not needed in this case now, because it's solved by luka-open and luka-pini, but I still feel all toki pona words can be compounded with all others to create a new meaning.
janKipo:
1. I absolutely stand by that these compounds should NOT be the main way of communicating at all. A person should always be encouraged to learn to think in the pure language well before they even learn about compounding. My thought is that compound words can be used to easily relay more literative but still uniquely toki pona concepts for an Author to use. It's very easy after all to get lost juggling only 120 words when trying to write a book. And I believe a full novel could be written in toki pona without sacrificing the innate simplicity and broadity of the language.
2. I concede you are correct about left and right. I suppose that can be communicated with open and pini.
3. I used "a" as the subject because it's the first word. I meant to systematically pair all words with all the words starting at the first one and going forward. I'm working on the "akesi" page, where are the words are modified to refer to reptiles in some way. It's not easy. But it's my thought that without breaking the rhythm of toki pona, compound word systems can be built, and thus every single individual word in the dictionary have another 120 words about itself with the use of compoundsd.
Thank you for explaining to me in more depth how toki pona can be used. I will remember this information for future use.
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Just an added note.
‘a’ and ‘o’ are quite distinct. ‘a’ is merely an exclamation, without an specific content outside context (and not much in it without some further specification). It is broadcast and undirected. ‘o’ is (in the relevant usage) directed to a specific audience and meant to attract the attention of the audience to the speaker “Hey!”.
‘a’ and ‘o’ are quite distinct. ‘a’ is merely an exclamation, without an specific content outside context (and not much in it without some further specification). It is broadcast and undirected. ‘o’ is (in the relevant usage) directed to a specific audience and meant to attract the attention of the audience to the speaker “Hey!”.
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
Hi there!Ursidae14 wrote: KNTRO:
I'd love to see your version of this project, of course all my definitions are pending and broad in their own sense.
I have finally started my own Toki Pona dictionary. You can find it here. It's probably full of mistakes, which may be discovered by Toki Pona experts from this forum. Also, I still don't know how to say a bunch of things in Toki Pona. I will publish those words in this forum any time soon.
Regards.
sina toki kepeken toki Epanja la, sina kama pona tawa e kulupu lon ilo Telekan a!
Re: Compound Word Dictionary suggestion?
toki!
Maybe my dictionary is interesting for you.
https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https:// ... onary.html
pona!
Maybe my dictionary is interesting for you.
https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https:// ... onary.html
pona!
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)
On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)
On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.