Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

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jan_Lope
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Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:49 am

toki!

what do you think: "Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?"
pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent, rude spamming.

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jan Alanto
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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby jan Alanto » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:41 pm

And if it is a preposition, how different is it from "lon poka (pi)"?

"mi pali e tomo mi poka sina." (if possible) = "mi pali e tomo mi lon poka sina."?
"mi musi poka sina." = "mi musi lon poka sina."?

For me this is valid, but by the old lessons I never abandoned completely, instead of pu.

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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:12 pm

Sonja sanctioned 'poka' ascomitative "with" a few years ago, then took it back in pu. In the meantime, it had become firmly entrenched in the corpus, I.e., the language, as distinct from 'Lon poka'. It doesn't seem to be spatial restrictively, since I ca be poka someone in spirit while not in the flesh. Some Lopedoesn"t believe in the language as a living entity ("slang" he calls it), these facts are not relevant to his enterprise of constructing the simplest set of adequate rules for what he takes pu to say.
It is useful to remember that tp existed for more than a decade before pu came out; it was not created by pu. Pu is, st best, an introductory textbook to a language already in progress. It is not the last world or even the middle word on the subject ( compare with an elementary textbook in any natural language).

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jan Alanto
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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby jan Alanto » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:07 pm

The problem (or the solution) is that Lope still uses "poka" as a preposition, albeit with the same meaning as "lon poka (pi)". Pije, on the other side disapproves completely the usage of poka as preposition and says that "lon poka (pi)" is how you translate "with" into toki pona.

I think I haven't expressed well that I only find it valid that "lon poka (pi)" is equal to "poka". For me, using "poka" as preposition is valid, but not with the same meaning as "lon poka (pi)".

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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:14 am

That seems to be the majority view. 'poka' alone means "with" in some broad comitative sense., 'lon poka' means "beside, next to" is a spatial sense (though it , too, may have a broader use "on the side of" -- but there are no clear cases). In any case, they are different though related.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:15 am

jan Alanto wrote:The problem (or the solution) is that Lope still uses "poka" as a preposition, albeit with the same meaning as "lon poka (pi)". Pije, on the other side disapproves completely the usage of poka as preposition and says that "lon poka (pi)" is how you translate "with" into toki pona.

I think I haven't expressed well that I only find it valid that "lon poka (pi)" is equal to "poka". For me, using "poka" as preposition is valid, but not with the same meaning as "lon poka (pi)".


I still don't like that "mi tawa poka sina" would have two meanings that would be hard to tell apart (even with context).

In addition, one could easily make up new prepositions like that (e.g. "sewi" instead of "lon sewi pi").

Plus, it's not in pu.

→ Say no to preposition "poka". :D
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

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jan Alanto
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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby jan Alanto » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:47 am

What would preposition "sewi" mean? "poka" exists because we want to have "with", one of the more basic prepositions present in almost all languages (if not all), it was chosen to reduce word count, since it would have been "kan". There is no preposition that could be "sewi", unless you're refering to "up", but akin to "up" is "next to" which is "lon poka", not "with". That's not a valid attack on "poka" as preposition.

As for "mi tawa poka sina." It's easier to say "I go to your side" as "mi tawa sina." and probably "mi tawa poka sina." ("I go with you.") might also be expressed as "mi tawa lon poka sina." ("I go next to you.", see how they seem equal even in English), although longer. That's not to say "poka" equals to "lon poka", just that in some contexts, it really doesn't seem to make much difference. But in many other contexts, it'd be strange to say "next to" instead of "with" (I build a house with you/in your company. vs. I build a house next to you/at your side/near you.). Since that seems to give you zero bothering, then you have your argument justified. nasin pona li mute.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Is "poka" a spatial noun only or can it be a preposition too?

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:27 pm

jan Alanto wrote:What would preposition "sewi" mean? "poka" exists because we want to have "with", one of the more basic prepositions present in almost all languages (if not all), it was chosen to reduce word count, since it would have been "kan". There is no preposition that could be "sewi", unless you're refering to "up", but akin to "up" is "next to" which is "lon poka", not "with". That's not a valid attack on "poka" as preposition.

As for "mi tawa poka sina." It's easier to say "I go to your side" as "mi tawa sina." and probably "mi tawa poka sina." ("I go with you.") might also be expressed as "mi tawa lon poka sina." ("I go next to you.", see how they seem equal even in English), although longer. That's not to say "poka" equals to "lon poka", just that in some contexts, it really doesn't seem to make much difference. But in many other contexts, it'd be strange to say "next to" instead of "with" (I build a house with you/in your company. vs. I build a house next to you/at your side/near you.). Since that seems to give you zero bothering, then you have your argument justified. nasin pona li mute.


Hm... let me think of something for "sewi"... it could mean "more than". "mi jo sewi tomo tu" or maybe "mi jo e tomo sewi tu" (I have more than two houses). Or maybe "about"? (In German, "about" and "above" are the same word.) "mi toki sewi sina" (I am talking about you). I am not talking about "up".

So you would resolve the ambiguity of "mi tawa poka sina" by not using it. That solves the problem, of course! :D

Something else to consider, perhaps (if "poka" is a preposition): "jan poka" could be my colleague (my co-worker) or my neighbor. "jan poka mi" could be "my neighbor" or "the person that I'm doing something with". Well, the latter interpretation would trigger a "pi" with people that don't distinguish between nouns and prepositions: "jan pi poka mi", which sounds also like "person at my side"...

Here is another construction that needs to be avoided (like "mi tawa poka sina"): "tomo mi li lon poka tomo sina" means "my house stands together with your house", which means the same as "tomo mi li lon poka pi tomo sina", which means "my house stands next to your house".

As always, I will understand you anyways, because I know about the preposition "poka". It's not a problem for me.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona


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