janTepanNetaPelin wrote la phrases start with a preposition. I can't see it.
But are there posisibilities for preposition at the beginning of a la phrase?
Why do you think it is possible?
How can we distinguish such preposition from a noun?
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:"tan seme la sina pu?" - "Why do you read the Book?"
There are two plausible ways of analysing the sentence.
First (jan Lope's way), "tan" can only be a noun with the meaning "reason" and "seme" has to be its modifier, yielding "what reason". Its form without "la" would be:
"sina pu lon tan seme?" - lit. "At what reason do you read the Book?" → "Why do you read the Book?"
I din't wrote that you can transfer any la phrase to a prepositional object with lon.
We saw that a noun or pronoun start a la phrase normally. Where is the evidence that tan is here a preposition?
jan Alanto wrote:1. Sonja mentions "fragment" as A in "A la B." She doesn't explicit it must be a noun or a pronoun (she doesn't even distinguish nouns and pronouns). As a prepositional phrase is indeed a sentence fragment, it may go before "la".
jan Alanto wrote:2. In an exemple, Sonja uses "tan seme la" and translates it just as if it were "tan seme" at the end. Although she doesn't explicit the literal interpretation like in some previous examples, it's simpler to assume she meant "from what" than "what reason la", just changing the order of the sentence.
2.1. As a complement to the argument 2 it can be said that the nominal POV (that of the dictionary) of "tan" is a preposition, further validating that it should be read as such before "la" and also requiring another step of reasoning to get at the noun "reason" instead of "because of".
3. The definition given by Sonja for prepositions is that it introduces a noun. Nothing is said about connecting that noun to anything else. Prepositions can even be used without a verb.
I didn't add to those arguments that Sonja isn't prescriptivist, but rather describes her own way of using toki pona, implying freedom of interpretation of the rules, providing it keeps the simplicity and structure. Moreover, that's the way the community uses "la" and prepositions.
jan_Lope wrote:I think you mean a prepositional object for "prepositional phrase".
jan_Lope wrote:I 've checked a lot of correct Toki Pona sentences I didn't find prepositions in other places than at the beginning of a prepositional object.
jan_Lope wrote:Why do you think "tan" is a preposition in "tan seme la"?
jan Alanto wrote:Well, if a correct sentence is assumed by you to be a sentence with prepositions only at the end of it, then you'll really never find one with a preposition before "la".
jan Alanto wrote:1. Because the original meaning of "tan" is a preposition (it's in the dictionary as such).
jan Alanto wrote:2. Because there's no reason to assume it would change into a noun before "la", since it was mentioned nowhere that:
a) before "la" can't go a preposition,
jan Alanto wrote:b) prepositions only occur at the end of a sentence (It's said that it can be, unrestrictively) and
jan Alanto wrote:c) It can be changed into a noun (or anything else, you made that assumption).
jan Alanto wrote:Out of "la" phrases, for example, if "tan" (or any other preposition) comes after a noun, it must become an adjective, and if it comes before "li", it must become a noun,
jan Alanto wrote:but the problem is that Sonja doesn't explicitly mention those changes of POS
jan Alanto wrote:and there's not a single example of that (as for verbs, as prepositions can go immediately after "li" without a verb, maybe they just can be used like verbs, while still being prepositions.
jan_Lope wrote:If you give me an example we can discuss it.
jan_Lope wrote:As I wrote "tan" can be an adjective, a noun, a preposition or a intransitive verb depends of it position in a sentence with equal rights. There are no "original meaning".
jan_Lope wrote:You said "tan" can here a preposition also. But what is the rule of this additional rule?
jan_Lope wrote:jan Alanto wrote:it was mentioned nowhere that:
a) before "la" can't go a preposition,
I didn't wrote that. If a complete sentence before "la" a preposition can be in a prepositional object in the verb phrase of this sentence.
jan_Lope wrote:jan Alanto wrote:b) prepositions only occur at the end of a sentence (It's said that it can be, unrestrictively) and
Please give an example.
jan_Lope wrote:After a noun "tan" is an adjective.
jan_Lope wrote:What you mean with "changes of POS"?
jan_Lope wrote:Direct after "li" can only be slots for verbs, adjectives or nouns because after "li" starts a verb phrase.
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