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passive and active voice inside the phrases - Toki Pona Forums

passive and active voice inside the phrases

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jan Andrei Nikolaew
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passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby jan Andrei Nikolaew » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:52 pm

I guess the topic is 15 years old, but still. How do i (or can i) mark the difference:

jan moli - killer vs dead man
jan pakala - torturer vs tortue victim
jan kule - painter vs bodyart model
jan lukin - scout vs model
soweli moku - eating animal vs edible animal
soweli alasa - hunter vs prey

I guess 'li' could make it obvious:
jan li kule - the one that paints
jan kule - the painted man.
But then how do i use 'jan li kule' as a target?

janKipo
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Re: passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:28 pm

The short answer is "You can't". The usual answer is "Context will decide" (but it often doesn't)
As long as you are working with noun phrases, the task is pretty much hopeless because most relevant information gets lost in constructing noun phrases from sentences. Not that matters are a lot better with sentences: 'jan li kule' can mean "the man is colorful/colored" just as well as "The man colors/paints". For the most part sentences with objects are the clearest 'jan li kule e sama' "The man pained himself" vs. 'jan li kule e sitelen" "the man painted a picture"
In grammatical reconstructions of difficult passages, going back all the way to basic sentences like this, with 'jan ni' in place of the puzzling piece, clarifies the issue -- although doesn't say what the right reading is. And, of course, context does help. if there is a lot of it.
Bringing over from the underlying sentences more information also helps. A murderer is 'jan pi moli jan', for example (although, at a more remote level, that could be a murder victim - you basically can't get guaranteed disambiguation). A painter could fairly safely be 'jan pi kule sitelen' (and again, the demon says "or a man who got all smeared over when a painting fell on him" Remote, as i said.)
To be fair, the same demon can work up problems with the most innocent English sentences -- but it is a lot easier with tp.

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jan_Lope
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Re: passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby jan_Lope » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:17 am

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.


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