jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
Posts: 3036
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:05 am

'ijo pi mute lili' has become standard for "few things"

janChowlett
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:53 pm

janChowlett wrote:jan Tanpeto li toki pi nasin pi utala ala e ni: 'ona mute li ken ala ike tawa sina. sike suno luka luka wan li pini la mi mute li jo e ijo pi mute pi lili mute ni: tan ijo ni la mi mute li musi mute."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki pi nasin pi utala pilin e ni: 'mi sona e ni. taso ni li tan ala tawa ni: mi mute li weka e sona. jan mute li pali ala pi nasin ni: ona mute li wile pakala ala e ijo. ona mute li lon nasin lon tenpo suno li len ala kin e len pi jan Makele li toki e ijo sin kute tawa ante sama.'

jan Makonaka li lukin pi nasin wawa e jan Tanpeto kepeken poka oko. jan Makonaka li lukin pi nasin ni: ona li wile e ni: jan Tanpeto li toki e ijo tawa jan Makonaka. taso jan Tanpeto li toki ala. tan ni la jan Makonaka li toki e ni: "ni li lon la ali li pona mute: tenpo suno pi tawa weka pi jan Sina-Sona-Seme la jan mute Makele li kama sona e mi mute." (ona li toki pi nasin ni: ona li ante ali pilin tan toki sama.) ona li toki e ni: "o jan Tanpeto, ona li pini tawa weka kin anu pini tawa ala?"


Let's try this new front-loaded dialog, then.

nimi "ni li lon lukin mute" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. kin la "mi mute li jo e ijo mute ni: tan ijo ni la mi mute li pana e pona. sina wile ala wile jo e suwi pi kili jelo pi ko pi nasa pilin insa uta?"

"e seme?" *

"e suwi pi kili jelo pi ko pi nasa pilin insa uta. ni li suwi pi jan Makele li pona tawa mi."

"mi pana e pona. taso mi wile ala," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin lete, pi nasin ni: ona li pilin ala e ni: tenpo ni li pona tawa suwi ni. ona li toki e ni: "mi pini toki la jan Sina-Sona-Seme li tawa weka kin la - "

"o jan pona pi pana sona, mi pilin wawa e ni: sina ken nimi e ona kepeken nimi lon ona. nasa ali pi nimi 'Sina-Sona-Seme'! sike suno luka luka wan li pini la mi wile pali e ni: mi lawa kepeken toki la jan mute li nimi e ona kepeken nimi lon ona. nimi ni li nimi 'Potemoli'**." jan pi pana sona Makonaka li tawa lili pi nasin monsuta***. taso jan Tanpeto li tawa weka e suwi tu pi kili jelo li pali pi nasin ni: ona li lukin ala. jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: "mi mute li toki kin e nimi 'Sina-Sona-Seme' la jan li sona ala e ijo toki. tenpo pini ala la mi sona e ijo ni: tan ijo ni la jan li monsuta pilin tawa toki nimi pi jan Potemoli."

* I know this is entirely ungrammatical. So is much of spoken language. It seemed a good way of indicating that McGonagall is asking about the DO, rather than anything else.
** A more faithful transliteration would probably be "Potemo", but a) it's remarkably close to "Pota"; b) it's even closer to "Pottermore", which is Rowling's website for extra in-universe stuffs; and c) this way, I get to keep the "death" link in the last part!
*** I think I'm going to let myself have monsuta. It's too useful not to.

janKipo
Posts: 3036
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:21 pm

Well, there's grammatical and grammatical. Within a transformational context, the fact that it doesn't fit a linear grammar is not relevant if it can be explained as deriving from proper underlying forms (the ever-popular "understood" repetitions of the sentence being responded to in this case). To be sure, the grammar of such drops and adds isnot actually spelled out anywhere in most cases, but any tinpot grammarian worth his MA can whip up one ad hoc in a flash, on well-principled grounds.
I would have used 'Wotemo' or some such, since I never remember to think of /v/ as a labial -- though occassionally as a fricative, 'Soltemo'. Your rationale looks good to me, given that inital decision (and the final 'moli' is surely right).
I've been told that fear is a version of disgust, but I am not about to call Whatsisname jaki.

"This is at many views" [?] "This is in the sight of many." said Dumbledor. "We have these many things, from/because of which we help/ distribute good. Don't you want to have the sweetness of the yellow fruit with the peculiar feeling pulp [lon] in your mouth?"
"The what?"
"The sweetness of the yellow fruit with the peculiarly textured pulp [lon] in your mouth?"
"I give good things. But I don't want 'em." said Professor McGonagall, coldly, as if she did not think that this would be a good time for this sweet. She said "If I stop talking, if You Know Who also goes away ...."
"My,dear Professor, [the 'pi' feels wrong, but I don't know what else to do, reversing order of terms helps a bit], I firmly believe that you can call him by his proper name. The total nuttiness of the expression "You Know Who"! Eleven years having passed, I want that I I command using language, many people will call him by his proper name. That name is "Voldemort". Professor McGonagall moved slightly in a fearful manner. But Dumbledore removed the two lemon drops [?] and acted as if he did not see. Dumbledore said "If we still say the expression "You Know Who", people don't know what we are talking about [not quite right and I am not sure it is what you meant anyhow]. Never did I know why people felt fear of speaking the name of Voldemort."

janChowlett
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:50 am

Hmm, started badly, then improved.

There must be a better way to say "this is true". The original here has Dumbledore saying "It certainly seems so" => "It is muchly-truth-looking". But the binding of "lon" to "located at" is just too strong :(.

The "pona" we are "pana"'ing here is "thanks" - "We have much to be thankful for" (and later, "thank you, but no"). "pana e pona" is listed on tp.net's chatroom guidelines as "thank you" (http://tokipona.net/tp/chatguidelines.aspx). I understand that just "pona" is also used.

As much as I like "The sweetness of the yellow fruit with the peculiarly textured pulp [lon] in your mouth" :lol:, we're actually looking for a Sherbet Lemon. A comma should help sort out that the "ko" (powder) is related to the sweet, not the yellow fruit. It's still going to be difficult to parse, I think. Mind you, "sherbet" is a word you might not be expected to know in English - but in English you can fall back on "that powder that makes the strange feeling in your mouth"...

Hmm, if-then problem with Prof. McGonagall. Original is "As I was saying,". Would "sama pi toki pini mi la" be better? "kin" here is "really" ("if y-k-w really has gone" - that is ok, isn't it?

Are you suggesting "jan pi pana sona, pona"? I could see that, although it obviously does need the comma.

The sentence translated as "Eleven years having passed, I want that I I command using language, many people will call him by his proper name." is irritatingly not quite there; "For eleven years, I've been trying to persuade people to use his proper name". Actually, I think your reading pretty much carries the same meaning... what do you think?

Thinking about it, I have written "Dumbledore removed the two lemon drops". Actually he was "unsticking" two sherbet lemons. How can I move two things away from each other? "li tawa weka e suwi tu tan ante sama"?

Actually, "If we still say the expression "You Know Who", people don't know what we are talking about" is pretty much what I meant. "It all gets so confusing if we keep saying "You-Know-Who"."

janKipo
Posts: 3036
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:35 pm

I don't know what Sherbet Lemons are, hence a large part of that problem. Knowing a bit more about it, I don't have a lot of suggestions, except that maybe the 'ko' is unnecessary. And, of course, using two sentences rather than one "Would you like a lemon drop? They give your mouth a buzz"

Unfortunately, "located at" is what 'lon' means; the rest is tricks and mirrors, so you need to get the mirrors line up right. It means "true" (and "real" and "existent") when it has not object following it. I suppose 'sama' for "seem" would help: 'ni li sama lon' ("certainly" seems to be a 'la' phrase, maybe 'sona la').

Unfortunately, 'pana e pona' is also an expression for "help", which was uppermost in my mind for some reason. That should probably get changed, since the "thanks" usage is older and better established. The whole sentence is rather complicated. 'mi mute li wile pana e pona tan ijo mute.'

'sama toki pini mi la' ('sama' is a preposition). (another case for 'pake' since here toki isn't pini, just interrupted.)

'kin' is just right for "really" in the right context. I didn't get the context right.

'o jan pona pi pana sona' (the 'o' goes at the end in tp) seems to be in practice a double vocative "Friend, Professor" with the same referent, hence my trat, but, I see, it is literally "Good Professor" and works fine as such, aside from the draw of 'jan pona' as "friend".

My reading seems off in the sense that it talks about something new that he now wants to command rather than something he hsa been trying to persuade for the past eleven years. So, several problems "for the past eleven years" is a "during" 'la' phrase and we don't have those nailed down. I *think* it goes 'tenpo sike pini luka luka wan la' but the relative positions of the numbers and 'pini' at least are open to question. Now, an 'awen would help in the body giving the notion of ongoingness a boost 'mi awen pali e ni: jan li toki e ijo ona kepeken nimi lon ona' with some flourishes, I suppose.

'ona li tu e suwi tu' (although that might be a magic trick of doubling them, maybe 'kipisi', but that could just end up chopping them up).

"confusing" is often involving 'nasa' or 'pakala', but here the point comes across maybe better.

janChowlett
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:56 am

Wow, I knew things were bad in the colonies, but not knowing about sherbet lemons? ;). They're yellow, lemon-flavoured hard-boiled candy with a hole in the centre that's filled with lemon sherbet powder. I suppose I focused on the sherbet powder, but I guess it's not strictly necessary - describing the fizzing is more pertinent.

I haven't come across 'pake'; presumably it left the language some time ago. What did it mean?

nimi "sona la ni li sama lon" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. kin la "mi mute li wile pana e pona tan ijo mute. sina wile ala wile jo e suwi pi kili jelo? suwi ni li nasa pilin lon insa uta."

"e seme?"

"e suwi pi kili jelo, pi nasa pilin lon insa uta. ni li suwi pi jan Makele li pona tawa mi."

"mi pana e pona. taso mi wile ala," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin lete, pi nasin ni: ona li pilin ala e ni: tenpo ni li pona tawa suwi ni. ona li toki e ni: "sama toki pini mi la jan Sina-Sona-Seme li tawa weka kin la - "

"o jan pona pi pana sona, mi pilin wawa e ni: sina ken nimi e ona kepeken nimi lon ona. nasa ali pi nimi 'Sina-Sona-Seme'! tenpo sike pini luka luka wan la mi awen pali e ni: mi lawa kepeken toki la jan mute li nimi e ona kepeken nimi lon ona. nimi ni li nimi 'Wotemoli'." jan pi pana sona Makonaka li tawa lili pi nasin monsuta. taso jan Tanpeto li tu e suwi tu pi kili jelo li pali pi nasin ni: ona li lukin ala. jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: "mi mute li toki kin e nimi 'Sina-Sona-Seme' la jan li sona ala e ijo toki. tenpo pini ala la mi sona e ijo ni: tan ijo ni la jan li monsuta pilin tawa toki nimi pi jan Wotemoli."


(I've left in the "command using language", since I like the "persuade" in the original. I've also switched to "Wotemoli" - I've never been entirely satisfied with converting 'v' to a plosive via 'f'.)

nimi "mi sona e ni: sina sona ala e tan ni," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin tu. nasin ni nanpa wan li ni: ona li pilin ike pi utala lili tawa jan Tanpeto. nasin ni nanpa tu li ni: ona li pilin pona pi wile sama pali tawa jan Tanpeto. jan Makonaka li toki kin e ni: "taso sina ante. jan ali li sona e ni: jan Sina-Sona- -- a pona kin la jan Wotemoli -- li monsuta tan sina taso."

nimi "sina toki e ijo pona mi," li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin pi utala ala. kin la "jan Wotemoli li pini jo e wawa ni: tenpo ala mi kama jo e sama wawa."

"sina kama jo ala tan ni taso: sina - a - sina pali pona kin la sina kepeken ala e wawa ni!"

"tan lon li pimeja* la mi pilin pona. sinpin mi li loje. tenpo pini la sinpin mi li sama loje tan ni: meli Ponwi [Pomfrey] li toki e ni tawa mi: len seli pi uta mi li pona tawa ona. sinpin mi li sama ala loje lon ante tenpo pini."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li lukin wawa pi tenpo lili tawa jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: "waso pi tenpo pimeja pi tawa kon li mute pi lili mute. taso sin kute li mute mute li tawa kon. sina sona ala sona e toki pi jan ali? ona li tawa weka tan seme? ona li awen ala pali tan seme?"

* "It's dark" is a curious construction. What's "it"? There really isn't an actor to do the being-dark, so I thought I'd try "Existence is dark" (uh... not in a goth way). I could also see "tenpo ni li pimeja" - "now is dark".

janKipo
Posts: 3036
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:15 pm

'pake' never really made it to the language, just got contemplated in some of Sonja's note. It comes from "brake" and means "stop", not necessarily finish and allowing starting up again, and also "prevent". It could play an interesting role in both the aspect system as a complement to 'pini' and in the modal system, balancing both 'wile' and 'ken' (too much Logjam in play here). [added later. It's actually from "block"; so much for memory.]

"It's dark", like "It's raining" just acknowledges the existence of the crucial element 'pimeja li lon', 'telo anpa li lon' and so one.

Ahah! Sherbet Lemons are lemon-flovored Pop Rocks

"I know that you don't know the cause of this" said Professor McGonagall in two ways. In the first way, she feels slightly hostile toward Dumbledore. In the second way, she feels cooperative toward Dumbledore. McGonagall says further "But you have changed. Everybody knows that You-Know ... oh, all right, then, Voldemort ... is afraid of of only you."
"You talk about my good" said Dumbledore calmly "Voldemort stopped having the power that I never [la] get the same power [wawa sama]."
"You don't get [it] only because if you ... you succeed, you won't use the power."
"I am glad it is dark [mi pilin pona tan ni: pimeja li lon'] My face is red. ["I am blushing"?] In the past, my face was similarly red [maybe 'loje sama'?] because Pomfrey told me she liked my scarf [? "hot cloth of my mouth" is kinda obscure otherwise -- and even here] My face was not so red [loje sama? again] at other past times ['tenpo pini ante'}"
Professor McGonagall stared briefly ['lon tenpo lili', probably not 'pi'] at Dumbledore and said "The owls flying are very few. But [something seems to be missing here "new hear" maybe "you hear and are many and fly" but that doesn't compute. I skip to the next sentence.] Do you know what everyone is saying? Why are they going away? Why don't they keep acting?"

janChowlett
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:54 am

Ok, some tweaks needed.

Not "cooperative", "admiring" (the whole thing is "said Prof. McG, sounding half-exasperated, half-admiring"). Perhaps "ona li pilin pona tawa jan Tanpeto tan ni: ona li wile sama pali."? Although that may have exactly the same meaning. Aiming for "wanting to do the same", not "wanting to do with".

Not "You've changed", "you're different". How to distinguish the verb use from the adjective use of "ante"?

I'll drop the "pini" from "jan Wotemoli li pini jo" - it's just a simple past tense, so it's probably easier just to specify no tense at all than risk confusion with "stopped".

"Noble" was always going to be a hard concept to get over ("you're too... too noble to use them"); but I'm a touch disappointed that it's ended up as "succeed", rather than "do good". I can see why, but it's disappointing. Maybe "sina pona pali kin la" - you "are too good in the doing"?

Yes, "I'm blushing". This set of sentences is feeling the lack of both comparators and advanced time referants - "I haven't blushed this much since Madam Promfrey said she liked my...".

And I made an unforgivable confusion for "uta" for "kute". Is "len seli pi kute mi" any clearer? Answer as a footnote:*

Not "new hear", "heard-news" - that is, rumours. Would "ijo sin kute" be clearer? In any case, there's some abstractness here - "The owls are nothing compared to the rumours that are flying around" is entirely figurative, but I can't easily lose the figure of flying news without forcibly losing the comparison with the owls...

Not "they", "he" or "him" in the last two sentences. I'll substitute in a "mije" in the first one to clarify.

I'm not overly happy with the mistakes made, but I'll take some comfort if it turns out I've corrected them myself!

*: "Earmuffs"

janKipo
Posts: 3036
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:09 pm

Working backward as usual. The fact that we have only one very undifferentiated anaphoric pronoun places a lot of burden on context or sentence structure. Little as I like 'mje ni' and the like (or 'ona mije/jan'), they seem essential a lot of the time, when there are many (and often closer) NPs before. I'm not sure of a general cure for this.

So comparatives are another problem, since this looks like two separate points: flying owls are few and rumors are many and flying, rather than that there are fewer owls flying than rumors (and I am not sure that is exactly the point either). Again, this is inherent in tp and the only solution I know is to use semicolons between sentences that are semantically hooked in this way (and others, e.g., relative clauses). Direct parallelisms help a bit too, so 'mute lili' and 'mute mute'. But 'ijo sin' for news (indeed, just 'sin') is clear; the 'kute' sent me off in a different direction, since it strictly means "hearing", not "heard".

I'm not sure I would have read 'kute' as ears anyhow.

I am sorta at a loss for "since" in general, maybe 'tenpo nanpa pini la mi kama loje ni la jan Ponwi li toki...' "The last time I turned this red, etc."

Yeah, what does "noble" mean, anyhow. Something about following higher principles against immediate advantage, usually, but compacting that down seems well nigh impossible. Maybe just yet another use for 'pali e pona' as a stop-gap? "do the right thing".

I tend to leaves tenses in the 'la' field and use 'pini' and 'kama' (and awen' and 'open' and, in theory, 'pake') only for clear modals or aspects. But here I would think that the force was aspectual "used to have this power", right?

How to tell adjectival from verbal from nominal use is one of the great mysteries, supposedly solved by context, but rarely actually working that way. Most of the main tp derivatives or suggested revisions have focused on just this issue (including some of mine).

I am not sure how "admiration" comes out of "good feelings of workingly similar desires" or however you parse that; "cooperation" was a close as I could come. But then, I have no idea how to do "admiration" anyhow. But 'pilin pi wile sama ona' seems to be a part of it.

User avatar
janTepanNetaPelin
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:14 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:06 am

Hi jan Chowlett,

I just saw some interesting things here:

I saw "too" somewhere expressed as "pi mute ike", which I liked.

"to change" in the sense of "to become different" should be "kama ante", whereas "ante" is simply "(to be) different".

"jan Wotemoli li pini jo" sounds like "he stops having" or "he loses" to me.

"kute mi" is "my hearing", "my obedience" or "my ear", according to the Official Book.

Regards,
jan Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


Return to “ante toki”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron