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toki! - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

toki!

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janKipo
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Re: toki!

Postby janKipo » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:09 pm

Well, Lope tends to be very strict in his conservative readings of text. I have trouble reading his grammars and parse trees, but *as far as I can figure it out*, the problem is that the question mark comes after the display, not have the sentence that sets up the display (which is a question all right). That is, he would insist on 'mi ken ala ken toki e ni? tenpo pini lili la mi open kama sona e toki pona.'
The theological ground here is that tp has no subordinate clauses (we skip over 'la', which is strictly coordinate) and so the second sentence is not part of the question, but an add-on, the referent of 'ni'. This isn't strictly a part of grammar (well, it is in Lope's system, which has a lot of punctuation rules built in), but of punctuation conventions. I think that the community would generally do things your way, but there have been a number of complex cases, where the display (what the 'ni' points to) are also long and complex, where disputes have arisen. Another way of putting this is that there is a dispute about just what is a sentence in tp. (I tend to set the 'ni' referents aside for separate analysis and then stick them back into the original sentence after the colon but preserving the original final punctuation. Lope would reject all of this out of hand, but it does cover most community usage pretty well.)

janKipo
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Re: toki!

Postby janKipo » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:25 pm

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the name stuff. In my example, the second 'nimi' is unnecessary, as TP38 shows. But the quotes are not (as TP38 and elsewhere regularly gets wrong). In 'nimi mi li Api.', 'Api' is a name, that of the speaker. It is, in particular, not that of the name of the speaker. But, as a proper name in tp, it is an adjective modifying a noun of the genus of its referent. The available noun in this case is 'nimi', so it is presented as the name of a word, in particular the name of the speaker. So, two principles are here in contradiction: It is meant to be the speaker's name but it has to be the name of that name, not of the speaker. The solution is simply that, if we want to talk about a word, we use a name of that word, just as we use a name of a person to talk about that person. Now the easiest name of a word is a word made by enclosing the original word in quotes. So, if I want to say that a certain word is a person's name, I enclose that word in quotes and attach to a phrase meaning "is a name". So, to say your name is 'Jon' in tp, I say 'nimi sina li 'Jon'. Now, the predicate name is a name of a word and so of your name, not of you. And the contradiction disappears.

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jan_Lope
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Re: toki!

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:19 pm

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

jan Jon
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Re: toki!

Postby jan Jon » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:20 pm


jan Jon
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Re: toki!

Postby jan Jon » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:38 pm


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jan_Lope
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Re: toki!

Postby jan_Lope » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:23 am

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

jan Jon
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Re: toki!

Postby jan Jon » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:44 am


janKipo
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Re: toki!

Postby janKipo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:52 am

Citing Piriha~ for anything is never convincing, especially for (notoriously unprovable) negative claims.

The thing to take away from the discussion of the quoted and unquoted names is that names are not the things they name ("the map is not the territory", etc.). But it also carries over to Lope's solution '... toki e ni: "..."' in that an even more unexceptionable solution would be 'toki e nimi "..."', since quotations are names and so have to have the genus name to attach to. If you jus use the quote it is an improper proper name, if you use 'ni:' before the quote the you cannot put the question mark at the end, since the quote is not strictly in the sentence. (This is mainly fussbudgetry, but so is much of Lope's comments.)

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jan_Lope
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Re: toki!

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:17 am

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

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jan_Lope
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Re: toki!

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:52 pm

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.


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