toki! mi jan Natan.

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natan
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:12 am

jan Lope o, toki!

Nice to have another point of view (no offence jan Kipo).

Unfortunately some Toki Pona speakers use their own slang. The best is to ignore these people.

Ah slang, what a wonderful thing. If I have not already begun using my own, then I am sure I will at some stage :)

"mi jan Natan." is correct because "Natan" is not a official Toki Pona word. To make it clear what it is we use a noun before. The word "jan" show us "Natan" is a human. In "pu" unofficial word are adjectives and need a noun before. But Sonja use in pu the example "nimi mi li Apu" also. From the grammatical point of view it could be correct (NOUN + li + ADJECTIVE). The adjective belong to the noun here. But this unclear because "Natan" could be a name, a disease, property, ... (sorry ;-).


As I see it, if I was asked: "Who are you? (sina e seme?)", I would think my answer could/should be "mi jan Natan.".
Alternatively, I might answer the question mi e sewi pimeja (attempt at saying "I am the dark lord") which states who/what I am, but not my name (so much), or mi e ilo mije (attempt at saying "I am the tool man").

However, if I was asked: "What is your name?" (nimi sina e seme?), I would think my answer should be "nimi mi li Natan", as I have been directly asked what my name is—so I should directly say what my name is.

Am I alone in thinking this?

jan_Lope
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:22 am

natan wrote:As I see it, if I was asked: "Who are you? (sina e seme?)", I would think my answer could/should be "mi jan Natan.".
Alternatively, I might answer the question mi e sewi pimeja (attempt at saying "I am the dark lord") which states who/what I am, but not my name (so much), or mi e ilo mije (attempt at saying "I am the tool man").

However, if I was asked: "What is your name?" (nimi sina e seme?), I would think my answer should be "nimi mi li Natan", as I have been directly asked what my name is—so I should directly say what my name is.

Am I alone in thinking this?


jan Natan o, toki!

"sina e seme?" is wrong. There is no verb. "Who are you?" is "sina jan seme?" or "What is you name?" is "nimi sina li seme?"

"I am the dark lord." - "mi sewi pimeja."
"I am the tool man." - "mi jan ilo." Maybe better is "mi jo e ilo mute." (I have tools). BTW: "ilo mije" means "man tool".

My point of view is: "nimi mi li Natan." is not wrong because this form is used in the official Toki Pona book. But I prefer not to use it (see my lessons). Sonja wrote: Every unofficial word is a adjective and need a noun before. It is much more clear to understand. For example an unofficial word can sounds similar to an official Toki Pona word.

pona!
pona!
jan Lope
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/ (Lessons)
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/dcg/ (Prolog and DCG)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of spamming.

natan
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:34 am

jan Lope,

Why I wrote "nimi sina e seme" instead of "nimi sina li seme" I am not sure. Even me as a relative beginner knows that was wrong.

"ilo mije"... oh yeah!

pona! :-)

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:24 pm

I'm not sure why Lope doesn't like 'nimi mi li Natan'. It seems to be that he wants (as the custom is) to have a generic word before any name. That would suggest that he would be happy with 'nimi mi li jan Natan', which is, logically, the worst choice, since it identifies you and your name, equating the referents of the two noun phrases, 'nimi mi' and 'jan Natan'. So, I don't think he means that either. That leaves him with 'mi jan Natan' as the least objectionable response, even if it is not directly responsive. I suppose that he objects to using quotation names because they are "slang", that is, apparently, not used in pu (or Pije or Lope, as far as I can remember). So, 'nimi mi li nimi 'Natan'', which should meet all his objections, is out. I suppose that 'mi Natan' is out for lack of a noun in the predicate for the predicate adjective to lean on (see what take to be his objection 'nimi mi li Natan'). I wonder what he thinks of 'nimi mi li ni: Natan'.
I do worry that no one seems to find 'nimi mi li Natan' odd, even tough, at the best of interpretations, it tells the name of your name, not the name of you. (And the tricks to save it just make matters worse, since, once you and your name have the same name, confusions never end. Or, if it does give your name, then, why does 'soweli mi li loje' not say that I, rather than my dog, is red? or, more directly, that 'nimi mi li lili' not say that I, rather than my name, is short?)

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:16 pm

natan wrote:toki! mi jan Natan.
Or should that be nimi mi li Natan?

pu says the latter, yet I see the former in use often.

After reading http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?p=799, I believe my aim will be to use toki pona as the original, simple, way of communication set out in pu. (If I want to speak, write or think complex things, I will use English.)

Currently, I still get a little confused, so I will likely bug everyone with questions.

mi wile e toki pona.
(I need toki pona.)


jan Natan o,

you are "jan Natan" and your name is "Natan", therefore both is correct

- nimi mi li "Natan"
- mi jan Natan

I wrote a grammar about official Toki Pona (vs. dialects of "jan nasa" — you have already run into one in this thread). See the link in my signature.

Regards
Last edited by janTepanNetaPelin on Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:22 pm

If your name is "Natan", then you want to say 'nimi mi li "Natan"'. Otherwise, you say that your name is you, which is just obviously not the case.

natan
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:00 pm

What is a name?
Is a name nothing more than an identifier?
What is to stop me using another (different) name to refer to the same object? (E.g. Couch and sofa are interchangeable words generally, meaning the same thing.)
So is it really "me" that is called by that thing (name)?
And why am I called by that name?

What about "The dog is called Alfred" or "The dog's name is Alfred". Or a bird, or a cat, or anything else we jan give names to.
Maybe
nimi li soweli e Alfred
Or
nimi soweli li Alfred

In such a case, jan is not applicable as it is not a person that is being referred to.

Taking it a step further:
Imagine a world were dogs can speak toki pona. Pretend I am a dog that speaks toki pona.
I am aware that soweli is a "land-dwelling animal", such as myself (though I may also be referred to as soweli lili as I am smaller than many other such animals).
jan, is still people (e.g. humans, bipeds).
I meet a lovely lady dog (soweli meli) and want to introduce myself.
Obviously mi jan Alfred is not going to cut it as I am not a person. So, nimi mi li Alfred would be a likely choice in this instance. But if that is wrong for a human to use (as has been attested), then surely it is wrong for me to use too! So do I then have to say mi soweli Alfred, specifying that it is me, the dog that I am, being referred to by the name "Alfred"?

Thoughts?

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:39 pm

The fact that English is incredibly sloppy with words, is no reason that tp has to be. As the General Semanticists say "The word is not the thing" and so a word for a word should be different from a word for a thing. Notice what you say "Couch and sofa are interchangeable words", but couch and sofa are types of furniture, not words at all. If you want to talk about a thing, you need to use a word for that thing and, if that thing happens to be a word, then you need to use a word for that word. Otherwise you are constantly generating muddles. The fact that people are often not muddled is thanks to the human innate ability to sort through a range of possible screw-ups and find one that makes sense of the gibberish just produced. It is a matter of simple conversational cooperation to avoid screw-ups when possible. So, if you want to talk about a word, use a name of that word. The easiest one in writing is created by putting quotes around the word itself. So, say ""couch" and "sofa' are interchangeable words", which is true and nonconfusings. While you are at it, try to avoid scare quotes, which just add another layer of muddlement (or use different quotes for them, since they are useful sometimes). What is the point of the quotes around "me", since presumably what you want to refer to is really you, not even some ironic sense?
A name is a conventional identifier.
A name usually has a mass of convention going with it, so it is more than just a lable. However, that is not always the case.
You can use another word for a thing, but, if you goo outside the conventions, you may not be understood.
Yes it is really you called by "me" and "I', when you use them.
You got stuck with it by some convention, possibly only your own choice.
The name does not make a beast of Alfred (whose name needs a lead-in generic noun, say, 'soweli')
And the beasts name is not Alfred either (or, it may be, of course, since quotation names are not the only sort of names words can have, but then we still don't know what to call the beast).
Yes, the dog says 'mi soweli Alfred' (though "Alfred" is not a tp name, 'Ape' maybe). For further confusion, since 'jan' means "person" as well as "human" and persons are defined as speakers and lovers in tp, a speaking dog in love could perfectly well say 'mi jan Ape'. She can probably notice that you are a dog person.


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