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toki! mi jan Natan. - Page 2 - Toki Pona Forums

toki! mi jan Natan.

Community: Meet and greet, introductions, networking, gatherings, events, what's new in your life?
Komunumo: Interkoniĝo, sinprezentoj, socia retumado, renkontiĝoj, eventoj, kio novas en via vivo?
natan
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Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:12 am


User avatar
jan_Lope
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby jan_Lope » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:22 am

pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

natan
Posts: 28
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:34 am

jan Lope,

Why I wrote "nimi sina e seme" instead of "nimi sina li seme" I am not sure. Even me as a relative beginner knows that was wrong.

"ilo mije"... oh yeah!

pona! :-)

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:24 pm

I'm not sure why Lope doesn't like 'nimi mi li Natan'. It seems to be that he wants (as the custom is) to have a generic word before any name. That would suggest that he would be happy with 'nimi mi li jan Natan', which is, logically, the worst choice, since it identifies you and your name, equating the referents of the two noun phrases, 'nimi mi' and 'jan Natan'. So, I don't think he means that either. That leaves him with 'mi jan Natan' as the least objectionable response, even if it is not directly responsive. I suppose that he objects to using quotation names because they are "slang", that is, apparently, not used in pu (or Pije or Lope, as far as I can remember). So, 'nimi mi li nimi 'Natan'', which should meet all his objections, is out. I suppose that 'mi Natan' is out for lack of a noun in the predicate for the predicate adjective to lean on (see what take to be his objection 'nimi mi li Natan'). I wonder what he thinks of 'nimi mi li ni: Natan'.
I do worry that no one seems to find 'nimi mi li Natan' odd, even tough, at the best of interpretations, it tells the name of your name, not the name of you. (And the tricks to save it just make matters worse, since, once you and your name have the same name, confusions never end. Or, if it does give your name, then, why does 'soweli mi li loje' not say that I, rather than my dog, is red? or, more directly, that 'nimi mi li lili' not say that I, rather than my name, is short?)

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Location: Berlin
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:16 pm

Last edited by janTepanNetaPelin on Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:22 pm

If your name is "Natan", then you want to say 'nimi mi li "Natan"'. Otherwise, you say that your name is you, which is just obviously not the case.

natan
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby natan » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:00 pm


janKipo
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Re: toki! mi jan Natan.

Postby janKipo » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:39 pm

The fact that English is incredibly sloppy with words, is no reason that tp has to be. As the General Semanticists say "The word is not the thing" and so a word for a word should be different from a word for a thing. Notice what you say "Couch and sofa are interchangeable words", but couch and sofa are types of furniture, not words at all. If you want to talk about a thing, you need to use a word for that thing and, if that thing happens to be a word, then you need to use a word for that word. Otherwise you are constantly generating muddles. The fact that people are often not muddled is thanks to the human innate ability to sort through a range of possible screw-ups and find one that makes sense of the gibberish just produced. It is a matter of simple conversational cooperation to avoid screw-ups when possible. So, if you want to talk about a word, use a name of that word. The easiest one in writing is created by putting quotes around the word itself. So, say ""couch" and "sofa' are interchangeable words", which is true and nonconfusings. While you are at it, try to avoid scare quotes, which just add another layer of muddlement (or use different quotes for them, since they are useful sometimes). What is the point of the quotes around "me", since presumably what you want to refer to is really you, not even some ironic sense?
A name is a conventional identifier.
A name usually has a mass of convention going with it, so it is more than just a lable. However, that is not always the case.
You can use another word for a thing, but, if you goo outside the conventions, you may not be understood.
Yes it is really you called by "me" and "I', when you use them.
You got stuck with it by some convention, possibly only your own choice.
The name does not make a beast of Alfred (whose name needs a lead-in generic noun, say, 'soweli')
And the beasts name is not Alfred either (or, it may be, of course, since quotation names are not the only sort of names words can have, but then we still don't know what to call the beast).
Yes, the dog says 'mi soweli Alfred' (though "Alfred" is not a tp name, 'Ape' maybe). For further confusion, since 'jan' means "person" as well as "human" and persons are defined as speakers and lovers in tp, a speaking dog in love could perfectly well say 'mi jan Ape'. She can probably notice that you are a dog person.


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