toki! : )

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jan josu
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toki! : )

Post by jan josu »

toki! mi jan josu. mi sin. : ) mi kama tawa kulupu toki pona tan mi wile sona e toki pona. mi sona lili mute e toki pona. : ( mi toki pona e pona ala pona? tawa pona. : )
janMato
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Re: toki! : )

Post by janMato »

jan josu wrote:toki! mi jan josu. mi sin. : ) mi kama tawa kulupu toki pona tan mi wile sona e toki pona. mi sona lili mute e toki pona. : ( mi toki pona e pona ala pona? tawa pona. : )
pona kin!

taso ni li pakala lili:
mi kama tawa kulupu toki pona tan ni: mi wile sona e toki pona.
The general model of a simple language is "beads on a string" instead of "self similar trees" Embedding sentences in sentences is only allowed in la constructions. Coordination is done with anaphoric ni's sometimes with or without a suitable head now, and sometimes with ona, with or without a suitable modifier.
Kuti
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Re: toki! : )

Post by Kuti »

kama pona jan Josu
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jan josu
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Re: toki! : )

Post by jan josu »

pona kin!

taso ni li pakala lili:
mi kama tawa kulupu toki pona tan ni: mi wile sona e toki pona.
The general model of a simple language is "beads on a string" instead of "self similar trees" Embedding sentences in sentences is only allowed in la constructions. Coordination is done with anaphoric ni's sometimes with or without a suitable head now, and sometimes with ona, with or without a suitable modifier.
Thank you for explaining this in english! I would've found it very hard to follow in toki pona. : P My knowledge of linguistic terminology is very limited, but I assume if I removed the "tan ni" (which should've been tan ni:, I think) and instead wrote "mi kama tawa kulupi toki pona. mi wile sona e toki pona." this would have been correct? I suppose that's what I get for being overly ambitious! : P Perhaps I shouldn't have typed the first sentence at all? I've been reading over the lessons but its hard to find the time in between working (like a dog!) so I appreciate you taking the time to help me learn. : )
kama pona jan Josu
yan Kuti o, pona. : ) Is that the correct way to wish someone well? Or to thank someone/direct positive emotion towards them? Lol, this language really is foreign to me, I'm finding it hard to express simple things that I take for granted in english. Thanks for the warm welcome! : D
janMato
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Re: toki! : )

Post by janMato »

jan josu wrote:"mi kama tawa kulupi toki pona. mi wile sona e toki pona." this would have been correct?
That would be fine, but when I read sentences in a row with nothing to relate them, I get a feeling of the passage of time, but not much else. So when causation is going on you'd want to use something like:

1) mi kama tawa kulupi toki pona. mi wile sona e toki pona. (First) I came to this toki pona community. (Later) I want to learn toki pona. I think there is a grician maxim (The maxim of relation) that says if you put two sentences together like this it is safe to assume there is some relation going on, otherwise it would be a non sequitor, and no one is expected to converse with utterly unrelated sentences.
2) mi wile sona e toki pona. tan ni la mi kama tawa kulupu ni. I wanted to learn toki pona, so I came to this community. This is ad la fragment strategy. The phrase "tan ni la" roughly because "because" and it allows people to put sentences in a more natural order, with old information first, and new information second.
3) mi kama tawa kulupu ni tan ni: mi wile sona e toki pona. I came to this community for this reason: To learn toki pona.
4) mi kama tawa kulupu ni la mi wile sona e toki pona. (Literally) If I've come to this community, it is because I want to learn toki pona.

So notice that in all of these, we have "Sentence. Sentence." No conjunctions or embedded sentences, except #4. An example of an embedded sentence in English would be, "I'm looking for the man who shot my pa" A non-embedded version would be, "I'm looking for a man. That man shot my pa" In some hunter and gatherer societies, and ancient Mesopotamian texts, you get more sentences w/o embedding going on and in modern society, people like lawyers and legislators *love* long sentences with many embedded sub-sentences/clauses.
I suppose that's what I get for being overly ambitious! : P Perhaps I shouldn't have typed the first sentence at all?
tenpo ale la jan li sitelen nimi mute la ni li pona kin tawa mi. I prefer more text than less, it helps clear up misunderstandings should one sentence fail to make sense.
kama pona jan Josu
yan Kuti o, pona. : ) Is that the correct way to wish someone well? Or to thank someone/direct positive emotion towards them?
Lots of directions you can go with polite speech-- you can assume that everyone is essentially well meaning and polite and dispense with the pleasantries and formalities. On the principle of simplicity, this has some merit-- it makes speech more concise.

On the otherhand, we aren't using toki pona in a cultural vacuum. Unless I know you are a Klingon (i.e. from a country where it is rude to *not* dispense with the pleasantries), when I see the pleasantries missing, I hear rudeness, and on the web, it pays, imho, to be more polite than necessary.

kama pona is "Welcome", essentially a calque of the English and European way to say it.

toki! means "Talk!" and I don't use it online. Once someone called me up and said "Toki!" and I entirely didn't realize it was toki pona.

mi kama/mi tawa. "I've arrived"/"I'm leaving" = "hello"/"goodbye". I used to use this one until it annoyed me that I'm neither coming nor going when posting a message online. This would make sense for in person communication.

Well wishing usually uses some sort of o-construction.

o ale li pona tawa sina! "May everything be good for you"

I like long full sentence polite phrases.

jan Josu o! mi pilin pona kin tan ni: sina lon kulupu pi mi mute!
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jan josu
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Re: toki! : )

Post by jan josu »

tan ni la mi jo e moku lawa mute! : )
I'm aiming for, "Because of that I have plenty of food for thought", literally I have many head foods. I suppose "tan ni la mi jo e moku mute tawa lawa mi." many food for my head might make more sense?
2) mi wile sona e toki pona. tan ni la mi kama tawa kulupu ni. I wanted to learn toki pona, so I came to this community. This is ad la fragment strategy. The phrase "tan ni la" roughly because "because" and it allows people to put sentences in a more natural order, with old information first, and new information second.
mi kepeken e nimi mute ni. tan ni la ona li kalama pona kin tawa mi. : P
toki! means "Talk!" and I don't use it online. Once someone called me up and said "Toki!" and I entirely didn't realize it was toki pona.
I assumed that it had been taken on almost as a slang word for hello because I'd seen it used so often, I wonder how it began to be used to begin sentences like that. :?

kama pona makes sense if you're on home turf and you're talking to someone, otherwise its a little strange! Any ideas for a more territorially neutral greeting? : P I've seen pona used in some phrase lists to mean hello, but that seems a little stilted.
o ale li pona tawa sina! "May everything be good for you"
nimi mute ni li pona tawa mi. : ) It seems to correspond quite closely with "all the best", which I use quite often in english.

tawa tenpo poka e ni: mi lukin e sina. I'm aiming for, until next time. (Literally) To next time that I see you. Is it correct to use poka as an adjective to time in this way? Also, am I correct in using nimi mute ni to mean "this sentence" (literally this many words, is there a better way to phrase that)?

Thanks again, this is really helping me out! : )
Kuti
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Re: toki! : )

Post by Kuti »

pona alone can mean thanks yes, and it is polite
jan josu wrote:tan ni la mi jo e moku lawa mute! : )
I'm aiming for, "Because of that I have plenty of food for thought", literally I have many head foods. I suppose "tan ni la mi jo e moku mute tawa lawa mi." many food for my head might make more sense?
If you say moku i would thing you are trying to put a pizza in your head, or use the food energy to think. Maybe the word sona ( knowledge ) would avoid confusion.

janMato wrote: toki! means "Talk!" and I don't use it online. Once someone called me up and said "Toki!" and I entirely didn't realize it was toki pona.
hu :shock: everybody uses toki to mean hello too. Maybe it is useless on the forum, but online can be many things. We have IRC and Skype and we use toki everyday to say hello.
Time to time some says "suno pona" as good morning or something. But on internet you have people of all sides of the planet, so it is not always tenpo suno, when it is day and you say suno pona to someone at the other side of earth where it is night, it is quite weird :? :lol:
ken la ona li ken toki e ni: pimeja pona :arrow:
janMato wrote:mi kama/mi tawa. "I've arrived"/"I'm leaving" = "hello"/"goodbye". I used to use this one until it annoyed me that I'm neither coming nor going when posting a message online. This would make sense for in person communication.
But online is not person-to-computer, it is person-to-computer-to-internet-to-computer-to-person. Forget the machines and it like person-to-person.
How would you do with phone ?
Maybe mi kama/mi tawa is better to be used online on the Second Life experiment where your avatar arrived and leave, almost like in real life.

To sum up, i think those words are parts of speech, understood by almost everyone, so it could be good to stay with them.

edit: oops
Last edited by Kuti on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
janSilipu
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Re: toki! : )

Post by janSilipu »

'tawa tenpo poka e ni'. The real problem here is the 'e', which is only for direct object, which only come after main verbs, which nothing in this phrase is. Nobody has worked on expressions like "until" or "since" but this looks like the start of a way to go. Whether 'poka' can mean "next" is also unclear but looks promising. While we are being fussy about set phrases, though, we don't see one another, so 'lukin' may be inappropriate. Those set phrases are conventional and most were set up by jan Sonja, probably with face-to-face conversation in mind. I think we can continue to use them as conventional, withou too much concern about literal meaning (does anyone remember what "Hello" really means). In any case, 'toki' means "communicate" and so is appropriate for all media.
jan Kuti o, 'ona LI'
Jan Mato o, the 'it is because" is not literally a part of the S la S construction. At best it is a Gricean inference.
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