tomo sona

Community: Meet and greet, introductions, networking, gatherings, events, what's new in your life?
Komunumo: Interkoniĝo, sinprezentoj, socia retumado, renkontiĝoj, eventoj, kio novas en via vivo?
mije Wi
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:29 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by mije Wi »

By the way, I think I am just a jan pi kama sona kasi.
I matriculated in Agriculture Sciences and Productions.
What about jan pi kama sona pi sona en pali pi kasi?
ma ante reads as other country, unless there is some context going on to make me think of cities first.
I don't agree. ma tomo is a subset of ma. As, as you said, a waso tawa is a bird, a ma tomo is a ma -- i think in tp we should think this way.

If I wanted to specify "country" I could have used other modifiers or sentences. I just said ma, and ma tomo is a ma.

ni li pona anu pona.
Last edited by mije Wi on Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ヤんリヨエヤんセゐラヤんリヰれエアら
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: tomo sona

Post by janMato »

mije Wi wrote:By the way, I think I am just a jan pi kama sona kasi.
I matriculated in Agriculture Sciences and Productions.
What about jan pi kama sona pi sona en pali pi kasi?
Need one more word after pi.
ma ante reads as other country, unless there is some context going on to make me think of cities first.
I don't agree. ma tomo is a subset of ma. As, as you said, a waso tawa is a bird, a ma tomo is a ma -- i think in tp we should think this way.
If I wanted to specify "country" I could have used other modifiers or sentences. I just said ma, and ma tomo is a ma.
Okay if we restrict ourselves to the broadest meanings, then ma ante means, "somewhere else", maybe you went down the road, or across the parking lot.

This reminds me of the comment someone made about "supa" how it basically means some comfortable piece of furniture-- a rather narrow meaning for a word. It would probably have that basic meaning in speech at home.

I think on an internet forum with various international posters, unmodified ma probably means country. In a house, unmodified ma probably means some room or region of the house. Anyhow, not an issue that can be resolved. The safest thing to do is to use a rather long phrase first and then use unadorned head words later.

mi lon ma tomo pi ma Awinton. ken la mi tawa ma ante li alasa e pali sin.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by janKipo »

pona. Did you mean 'anu pona ala'?
I am not sure about 'pali' being production, but it probably is. So your expression is OK, except that 'pi' has to have two words after it. But then you have 'sona en pali kasi' which is at least ambiguous, as was the 'pi' version, but more likely to take the 'kasi' as going only with the 'pali' rather than the pair. I don't know how to fix this without rewriting the whole thing (and I am not sure I know how to do that even).
On the 'ma' matter again (Mato arrived mid typing) I find his advice useful on a practical level, whatever the theory says (Conversational Conventions require just the right amount of information and you'll get responses if you violate the rule. So I guess you did.)
'supa' means flat horizontal surface, basically, and the other stuff comes from that by various specification in modification or context. I'm not sure what 'ma' means inside a house, but 'tomo' means "room" (or "suite" or "floor", etc., subspaces).
mije Wi
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:29 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by mije Wi »

What about jan pi kama sona pi sona en pali pi kasi?
Need one more word after pi.
jan pi kama sona pi (sona en pali) pi kasi or
jan pi kama sona pi sona kasi en pali kasi or just
jan pi kama sona pi pali kasi (if I kama sona them, they're already a science) ?

Is the first one legal?
pona. Did you mean 'anu pona ala'?
I don't remember well the questions rules...
(Conversational Conventions require just the right amount of information and you'll get responses if you violate the rule. So I guess you did.)
I'm not sure I understood. Did you mean that, being I misunderstood, It means I didn't give the right amount of information?
ヤんリヨエヤんセゐラヤんリヰれエアら
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: tomo sona

Post by janMato »

mije Wi wrote:jan pi kama sona pi (sona en pali) pi kasi or
jan pi kama sona pi sona kasi en pali kasi or just
jan pi kama sona pi pali kasi (if I kama sona them, they're already a science) ?

Is the first one legal?
Using en to join things after a pi, modifiers or noun phrases, is toki nasa (complex and pushing the boundaries of the language). Most attempts to write a phrase grammar (wikipedia's, I think jan Kipo's) don't permit en there. Conservative toki pona would repeat the item being modified. moku mi li moku loje li moku seli. vs moku mi li loje en seli.
Also, en, imho, implies mixture in a way that repeating the modificand doesn't.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by janKipo »

Wi: the first one is wrong because only 'kasi' occurs after 'pi'. The second is right but ambiguous (but that is hard to avoid with any complex in tp). The third is fine.
Three ways to sa y "Is this all right" : ni li pona ala pona, ni li pona anu seme, ni li pona anu pona ala. The first is probably clearest, the second opens up a range of possible answers, the third does not have to be a question (though it is rather pointless if it is not).
jan li toki e ijo pi mute pona ala la jan ante li toki ni tawa ona. jan li toki pi toki sina tawa sina. tan ni la sins toki e ijo pi mute pona ala. toki utala ni li pona ala. taso mi pilin e ni: sina toki e ijo pi mute pona ala. (mute pona = the right amount)
Mato: 'en' is just fine with 'pi' (and Sonja did some runs on ambiguities and how to avoid them -- generally don't get into thing too complex) and indeed everywhere except at the head of DOs and VPs. In those places, for the divisive "and" you use repeated 'e' and 'li' respectively. So, 'en' in those slots clearly mean compound "and". But in other places, including in in modifiers (hence always with 'pi'), 'en' can mean either one and there id no way, outside context, to decide which it is. I suspect that you are right that repeating the modifier here makes it more clearly divisive, but there are no guarantees. As usual, though, not collapsing at all is better in tp than collapsing, which is part of the reason that it is so hard to do clearly.
I am eating red food and hot food, but the red food is cold and the hot food is green, vs I am eating food that is both red and hot (which is a remarkably unclear example, since it has to be a mixture, but in this case it is not different from the divisive case: moku mi li loje li seli).
mije Wi
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:29 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by mije Wi »

jan pi kama sona pi sona en pali pi kasi and jan pi kama sona pi sona en pali kasi don't have different meanings?

1. jan pi kama sona pi (sona en pali) pi kasi
2. jan pi kama sona pi sona en (pali kasi)

Even if en could be used, probably I didn't understand how does it works.
toki utala ni li pona ala.
Sorry, I didn't mean to read unpolite.
Three ways to sa y "Is this all right" : ni li pona ala pona, ni li pona anu seme, ni li pona anu pona ala. The first is probably clearest, the second opens up a range of possible answers, the third does not have to be a question (though it is rather pointless if it is not).
Once I read there are ways to make rhetorical questions, expecting a "yes" or expecting a "no". Are they among these three ways?
ヤんリヨエヤんセゐラヤんリヰれエアら
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tomo sona

Post by janKipo »

I like the idea of 'pi' disambiguating a construction like 'sona en pali kasi' but that is not how it works (now). It sets up a right-grouped unit in a left grouping structure and so needs two items after it to form such a structure. So, (as of now -- but I'm thinking about the consequences of changing) 'sona en pali pi kasi' is simply ungrammatical, while 'sona en pali kasi' is ambiguous between '(sp)k' and 's(pk)' (at least -- in fact that phrase is part of a longer modifier, which might also be modified by the final 'kasi').
tp is not long on rhetoric. All three of these questions are perfectly straightforward and either answer is generally acceptable. Being a rhetorical question is more a matter of context than of form: if the (expected) answer is obvious from the context, then the question is rhetorical (and a lot more conditions that I can't think out right now).
Post Reply