tenpo suno mi

Community: Meet and greet, introductions, networking, gatherings, events, what's new in your life?
Komunumo: Interkoniĝo, sinprezentoj, socia retumado, renkontiĝoj, eventoj, kio novas en via vivo?
User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by jan Ote »

Some additions to jan Mato's remarks:

tenpo suno tu pi pali ala la mi lukin e lipu mute pi jan sitelen Usula Leguwin.
a a a! My first thought was: "jan sitelen"? The Illustrated Man. Now I know.
"Usula Lekuwin" (no "g" in toki pona").

mi wile toki e pali lon insa lipu mute.
I don't understand this. What does it mean "to talk a work inside this book"?

jan Ki li meli lili pi jan Pato tu.
"Ki is a daughter of second Pato"? "of two Patos"?

jan Ki ken pali e ni: soweli moku pi tomo ala li weka tan ma pi kasi suli. soweli li weka la jan alasa li moli e ona.
Ki can make this: eatable wild animals run away from a forest. When animals are running away, hunters kill them.

tenpo sike mute ma la jan Oke en jan Pato ike pi ma suli Tu li pali e ni: ona li pakala e mama (kulupu?) ante li weka e ma suli ona.
Probably withot "ma", certainly with "li":
Many years, Oke and bad Pato from Tu continent(?) made this: they destroyed other parents (tribes?) and removed(?) their continent.

jan Oke li wile pakala e pana wawa pi mama (kulupu?) ante.
Oke wanted to destroy a powerful gift of other tribe.

meli pi pana wawa pi mama (kulupu?) Kapo li lon ala la jan Kano li utala lili e ma tomo anpa li weka e meli tomo e jan Mele. jan pi ma tomo anpa li jo ala e pana wawa.
If women of powerful gift, from Kapo tribe, don't exist, Kano fights little against lower-house-land(?) and throw away housish(?) women and Mele.

pali musi mute pini (pini pi pali musi mute) la
Or pali musi mute li pini la
After many amusing/intersting "works"

sina li kepeken ala e pana wawa sama ilo utala la jan lawa ante li weka e ma suli tan mi (sina?).
If you don't use a powerful gift like a weapon [amibugity?: 'gift which is like a weapon' or 'use a gift in a role of weapon?'], then other leaders will throw away a great land from me (you?).

pana li kama e ilo utala.
Gifts became weapons.

ni li ike tawa jan Ki. jan Ki toki e ni tawa jan Ole. jan Ole pilin e ni: tenpo ali la ona li jo ala e pana wawa pi mama ona.
Ki didn't like it. She said this to Ole. Ole thought this: he/she never has a powerful gift of his/her parents.

mije suli ona li wile e ni: jan lawa ante pilin e ni: jan Ole li jo e pana wawa mute. jan ante li pilin e ni la jan lawa li weka ala e ma suli tan (tawa) jan Ole.
Their (his?) great men wanted this: other leaders think that Ole has a many powerful gifts (or maybe: pana pi wawa mute? = very powerful gift). If other leaders think that, then leaders don't throw away great land from Ole.

Oh, jan Mako, seems you are using 'weka' for "take away", right? It doesn't have this meaning.

...li wile pali e ijo ike tawa ona
...wanted to make a bad thing for him.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janKipo »

Over the weekend I read a book[maybe kulupu lipu or something to make clear it is a unity, not just a bunch of pages -- aesthetics] by the author Ursula LeGuin. The name of this book is "Pana"/"The Gift" [the name is a word and every proper adjective needs supporting noun, so 'nimbi pi lipu mute ni li nimi "Pana"'. But easier is just 'lipu mute ni li lipu mute Pana']. I want to talk about the content of this book. ["talk about" is one of tp's perennial enigmas. We cannot agree on the best way to do it. Your solution is one often proposed, but maybe not the most common or best. I think 'pali' is not quite the right word here: a work that you talk would be piece of literature ( not that yours isn't, just that it is not claimed to be). I would leave off the DO and just do the "about" or use the DO somehow for the "about", 'Ijo pi insa ... ', say.]
Many families [probably in an extended sense, I'll go with "tribe"] live in the high country and herd their herd animals [could also use 'mani' here, strictly speaking --but that might be confusing. Did you mean "herd animals", which you wrote, or "flocks of animals", 'kulupu soweli?] and drive away the Lowlanders ['jan PI ma anpa' every hill tribe has an expression for the people on the plains;it is never a compliment. 'weka' makes sense here since this removal is likely violent] and fight with the other lineages ['kulupu' would be nice, but we get it -- maybe a flavor ancestor worship here]
The name of the country is "Big Land". [ see earlier on names, here meaning just put a 'nimi, in before the quotes]. As for the leader of Big Country, his name is "Pato" [oh no, no, no. A jan is not a nimi and the shifted topic has to connected to it's place in the sentence, so ' nimi ona li nimi "Pato"' or, more simply, 'jan lawa pi ma suli li jan Pato']. The tribe had it's own powerful gift [or The ancestors had their own powerful aura. Or somewhere in between]. If a man with the gift marries woman with the gift, the gift does not stay with the parents [or tribe. Does this mean they lose the gift or only that it passes to their children? I am not sure that 'pana' as modifier can take the essentially passive meaning of "gifted" -- tp does poorly with passives. 'pi jo pana' is surer.]
I've been typing this on an iPad, which takes forever. More later, when my computer comes up.
Mako
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:32 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by Mako »

tenpo suno tu pi pali ala la mi lukin e lipu mute pi jan sitelen Usula Lekuwin. nimi pi lipu mute ni li nimi Pana. mi wile toki e lipu ni.

kulupu mama mute ante li lon ma sewi. kulupu li lawa e soweli kulupu. kulupu li pali e ni: ona li lawa e jan ma anpa tan ma anpa. kulupu li utala e mama ante. nimi pi ma kulupu li nimi “ma suli”. mama lawa pi kulupu li jo e pana wawa sama. mije poka pana li wile pali e ni: mije en meli poka pana sama li wan. mije li pali ala e ni la pana li lon ala. nimi pi jan lili li jan Ole. jan Ole li mije lili pi jan Kano. jan Kano li jan lawa pi kulupu Kapo. jan Ki li meli lili pi jan lawa ante tu. jan Kapo li ken pakala e jan ante kepeken tawa luka. jan Ole li ken ala. jan Ki ken pali e ni: soweli moku li tawa tan ma kasi suli. soweli li tawa la jan alasa li moli e ona.

tenpo ma sike mute la jan Oke li jan lawa ike pi ma suli Tu pali e ni: ona li pakala e kulupu ante li wile pana e ma suli ante tawa jan Oke. jan Oke pali e ni: meli tu poka pana wawa pi mama Kapo en mije li jo ala pana ijo li wan. jan Oke wile pakala pana wawa pi mama lawa ante. meli pi pana wawa pi mama Kapo li lon ala la jan Kano li utala lili e ma tomo suli anpa. Ona li lawa e meli tomo tan tomo suli. Nimi ona li jan Mele. jan pi ma tomo anpa li jo ala e pana wawa. jan Ole li jan lili la ona li ken ala kepeken e pana mama. jan Ole li wile ala pakala e jan ante.

(More to come)
Mako
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:32 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by Mako »

It's hard composing without any passive adjectives! But if I don't write, I won't learn!
jan pi toki pona o, mi pana e pona tawa sina. taso mi sona ala ni: mi lukin e lipu pi jan Pije. nimi "weka" li "to get rid of, away, to remove, to eliminate". What ought I to use for "take away"?
I was trying to indicate that leading families (mama lawa) have a specific Gift (jo pana wawa) which entitles them to lead their little clan (kulupu). Each leading family has a Domain (ma suli). They raid the Domains of other clans. They must marry other people with their gift to keep the gift. Brantor (jan lawa) Ogge of the Drum clan (kulupu Tumu) is systematically destroying the other clans and adding their land to his Domain. Canoc Caspro only sees his son as a weapon, even without the family gift.

But I thought the theme of turning gifts into weapons leading to destruction is very TP.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janKipo »

Still on the iPad. I am beginning to see why Twitter; more than 140 characters drives one crazy (and this on a keyboard big enough to hit only one key at a time --usually).
'weka' is an A, meaning "far, away, distant", so as a vt it means "cause to be distant". I think it got its violence component from some early uses about trash and ethnic cleansing. But it can also mean "rescue" or " hide" and other good things. "Take away" suggests you go along, which neither weka e nor tawa weka e does. Maybe lawa weka e?
Jo e pana
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janKipo »

On to the new version.
'toki e lipu ni' another way to do about, but not a very logical one. I may turn out to be right, however.
Why so complicated? 'kulupu li lawa e jan PI ma anpa tan ma sewi(?)' Somehow the pastoral image seems less violent than the probable reality.
'mama lawa kulupu': 'pi' needs two words after it.
Each leader family has its own gift?
Hmmm! Is this the "accompanying" or the "instrumental" "with"? It seems to be just the possessive, 'mije pi jo pana' (and this avoids the prep phrase).
Maybe 'mije pi jo pana li wile e ni: ona li wan e meli pi jo pana taso.'
Paragraph break -- we have the general, now to the specific. Drop the 'nimi pi' (see all previous stuff about people not being names, etc.)
'tawa luka'? Walking on his hands? Waving his arms?
'jan Ki LI ken e ni soweli moku li kama tan ...' (tawa is OK too, its just that the ideational conflict between direction toward and direction from jars a bit).
'kama' again, if they just move around, there is no advantage to the hunters.
"Many cyclical land times" Drop the 'ma', I suppose. "For many years"?
'jan... pi ma suli Tu LI pali' Could drop the 'pali e ni: ona' 'wile awen e ma suli ona tawa sama'
Oops, trying for a subordinate clause? Can't do it. This turns into "Two women with the mana of the Kapo lineage (but see earlier) and a man do not have the thingy gift ( jo ala e pana) and marry." I suppose you mean, a man with no gift at all. Best as a separate sentence, but collapse it is like 'mije pi jo pi pana ala'.
'pakala E pana'
'ona'? Oke? jan Kano? several other possibilities. 'meli tomo' "built like a porcelain privy"? "a woman of {his/their} home" , indeed, "of the Big House"?
Leave off 'nimi' (see above)
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janKipo »

TOT. Mato, can you check to see how often 'toki e' is followed by what is clearly the subject of the discussion, not the actual words or a paraphrase thereof (i.e. 'ni')?
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:TOT. Mato, can you check to see how often 'toki e' is followed by what is clearly the subject of the discussion, not the actual words or a paraphrase thereof (i.e. 'ni')?
Last time I checked, the vast majority of these were "e ni: S" The remainder were "e" and various attempts at creating obliques (prep phrase constructions).

From "The Stuff of Thought," there is a section on words of talking in English. There is a pattern for what constructions we use:

intransitive: babble. I babble. * I babble a speech.
oblique: I talk about carrots.
DO: It's time to talk turkey. (to say something important and specific), He said, "it's time to talk turkey". <-- Direct quote in the DO position.

I have no idea if this is a universal pattern.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janKipo »

I'm not clear why "I babble a speech" is starred, since "speech" as the DO of "babble" seems quite normal to me. (mi mu e toki)
I suspect that what I am interested in is those 'e' not "ni:' and also the various prep phrases that have been used. Did you mean that 'e' was part of an attempt at an oblique reference (not the best term, perhaps, for reference to a topic rather than to what is said about that topic) and that it was used together with prepositions to achieve this end?
Don't forget oblique speech: He said that it was time to talk turkey, the usual form underlying 'e ni:'.
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: tenpo suno mi

Post by janMato »

Ok, I looked it up. Pinker was specifically talking about double objects vs oblique constructions. (So I was wrong, it wasn't about intransitives vs transitives)

I asked him a question. (Double object)
* I babbled him a question.
I babbled a question to him.

ask, cit, pose, preach, quote, read, show, teach, tell, write -- take double objects.
babble, bark, bawl, bellow, bleat, boom, etc -- resist taking double objects.

The main pattern is that double object is for talking about specific things, and if things aren't specific, then the object gets moved to an oblique (which sometimes turns the verb into a intransitive verb)
Post Reply