Toki!

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janMato
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Re: Toki!

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:jan Mato: Maybe this is a case of object incorporation: he carrion-eats? (but then he really needs 'pi').
That is exactly my point. If we allow toki to take unmarked complements, then we're on the slippery slope to object incorporation (into verb phrase), because there isn't anything special about toki, where as tawa and kama are both on the semantic edge of being spatial prepositions with hints of motion (the later being metaphorical).

Object incorporation might be fine, but it would be better looking with a "pi" to preclude an adverbial reading. Anyhow, these are the joys of working with a language with a vague specification.
janKipo
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Re: Toki!

Post by janKipo »

Well, my remark was meant to be sarcastic; but OK. I thought you were in favor of object incorporation in tp, whereas you are just noting its apparent occurrence with some people claiming it is OK. 'toki' is special, of course, because it is one of those verb of prehension, where the favored DO is a proposition. This opens the need to state the topic of the discussion of which that proposition is a part, "about" in English. And one solution to that is to allow NP complements (with 'pi' if two or more words -- and, apparently, even if only one word long to avoid other readings) to these verbs (see 'pilin ike pi ni' in another context). I don't much like this solution (especially with the universal 'pi' which is needed to reduce the ambiguity somewhat), but it seems to be gaining ground. It is not, however, a case of object incorporation, since the topic was never the DO (although that is another possible solution to the problem -- a better one by and large). Unfortunately, the various complements or other NPs attaching to verbs tend to look alike and it is easy to generalize from a few cases, not recognized as special, to every verb. Or, of course, it is easy to forget the 'e'.
janMato
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Re: Toki!

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:Well, my remark was meant to be sarcastic; but OK. I thought you were in favor of object incorporation in tp, whereas you are just noting its apparent occurrence with some people claiming it is OK.
I think object incorporation (and maybe oblique incorporation) makes the most sense in li chains where otherwise it would be hard to co-ordinate prep phrases and objects.
mi moku pi moku li lape li pali e sitelen kepeken ilo sona. "I eat food, I sleep, I write programs using computers"
vs
mi moku li lape li pali e moku e sitelen kepeken ilo sona. multiple meanings, the above, plus "I eat, sleep and create food and pictures, all using computers"

Otherwise, it is better to use "e" or a suitable preposition, because both have more information than juxtaposition or "pi". Both juxtaposition and "pi" are mostly universal relationships that could mean anything.

Someday I need to compile a list of the uses of pi, because there are some cases where pi seems to be called for even when followed by only 1 word-- (overlays of e and preps esp.)

What seems common about toki, pilin, etc is that the semantically most logical object is implied by the verb. I talk a talk. I feel a feeling. I think a though. What else can one think? I can't think anything but thoughts. Talking is a bit more general-- I can talk a talk (or say a word, or say a sentence, etc).
... it is easy to generalize from a few cases, not recognized as special, to every verb. Or, of course, it is easy to forget the 'e'.
I've read that Esperanto that also double marks S and O (by place and by case), has people forgetting the final accusative "n", because if the word order is rigid enough, the "n" is unnecessary. I think this is the issue in toki pona, where the word order really is completely rigid. So "e" dropping is likely to happen and people will see it as an implied rule... of some sort that I'm still working out.
Kuti
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Re: Toki!

Post by Kuti »

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janKipo
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Re: Toki!

Post by janKipo »

And 'mu' to you, too.
So, 'soweli lili wawa' "strong little mammal' doesn't apply to hyenas. Maybe they aren't small for mammals: about a cubit at the shoulders, maybe 100 lbs? At least we agree about 'wawa' (though most of the soweli around it: lions, panthers, various ungulates would think it small)
'e' again: 'sitelen mi li lukin e soweli wawa' (Don't ask me how that works out logically).
The rest is strange. It officially says "My picture eats earthy hot internal dead critters." I extrapolate to "The critter my picture shows (or this critter I just mentioned) eats dead critters in hot countries" So, period after 'wawa. Start new sentence, because a new subject: 'soweli ni li moku e soweli moli lon [insa pi] ma seli'. I don't think the 'insa' is necessary here, but the 'lon' is. And modifier after head noun so "country hot" order.
janKipo
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Re: Toki!

Post by janKipo »

Two threads are overlapping badly here, so I think I have already said all this elsewhere -- or else its gone down the hole again.
What comes after each 'li' is a whole VP, not just a verb, so the DO and the PP are included. There is no need to coordinate a string of DOs with a string of verbs as each DO goes with its verb already. There is, however, a problem when you want one DO to apply to more than one verb. Officially now we have to repeat in each
li' box. But that is ridiculous, especially when the NP is long. So, then, anaphora, which has some risks but works. The possibility of using 'en' (or 'anu') between the verbs is not to be mentioned (and maybe moving the PPs up if they are different for different verbs with the same DO).
What 'e' does more than mark DO (it can't be move in this function to any other place, unlike final n in Esperanto -- though that seldom is moved) is mark a new NP in a new slot. So, if you drop the 'e,' the NP comes to be a modifier of the verb, unless it is one that takes a complement. This seems to be what has happened in some cases and then to have been generalized. I think that 'pilin ike' for "feel bad" is the most widespread of these (note the correct 'lukin ike' in Kuti's not), which may ease the the usage elsewhere. For the verbs you note, where the DO is called by the same word (for prehenders it is the complement), this is possibly a collapse of the 'x e x y' to just 'xy' but again, we need to resist the move or point out the peculiarities of the verbs where it occurs (almost all Verbs, alas).
Kuti
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Re: Toki!

Post by Kuti »

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janMato
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Re: Toki!

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:Two threads are overlapping badly here, so I think I have already said all this elsewhere -- or else its gone down the hole again.
What comes after each 'li' is a whole VP, not just a verb, so the DO and the PP are included.
Not according to the phrase grammar on wikipedia--but it wouldn't be the first time it was wrong/impossible/illogical. I'll have to do a search and see how often "e" has fallen between two "li" in a sentence. I suspect rarely. "e" can only go after the last "li" phrase.
There is, however, a problem when you want one DO to apply to more than one verb. Officially now we have to repeat in each
li' box.
I'll look and see if I can find any canonical references, being that what they are. I wish the 2003 jan Sonja lessons were online somewhere other than just Archive.org, Artchive.org is flaky. I don't remember ever seeing "x li y e x li z e a li b e c"
For the verbs you note, where the DO is called by the same word (for prehenders it is the complement), this is possibly a collapse of the 'x e x y' to just 'xy' but again, we need to resist the move or point out the peculiarities of the verbs where it occurs (almost all Verbs, alas).
Why resist? Valence increasing and decreasing operations happen because there is something pragmatically/semantically different about those words. Reflexive things become reflexive because the action has the same actor and patient. Passives are passives because we don't or can't know the actor. Predicates-- (it is red, it is on the shelf) are usually predicates because there is no action going on.

I wouldn't say that all verbs have the peculiarity of having (almost) only one plausible and weak possible patient. And so thats how I think my... thoughts.
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janSen
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Re: Toki!

Post by janSen »

a a a. toki pona li pona tawa mi. so vague, so ambiguous...

so can we agree that 'soweli pi walo en pimeja' is 'panda'? or zebra? or cow? haha.
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Re: Toki!

Post by janMato »

janSen wrote:a a a. toki pona li pona tawa mi. so vague, so ambiguous...

so can we agree that 'soweli pi walo en pimeja' is 'panda'? or zebra? or cow? haha.
Yes! It is all that and also a cat that has been rolling in chalk and ashes. Where it gets awkward is if you have a zebra that has been dipped in strawberry jam. Then it is "soweli (pi kule) loje". It could also be "soweli loje pi walo en pimeja," but some people on the forum don't like the later, which we seem to be calling the idiomatic form.
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