Classical Chinese writing system

Signs and symbols: Writing systems (hieroglyphs, nail writing) and Signed Toki Pona; unofficial scripts too
Signoj kaj simboloj: Skribsistemoj (hieroglifoj, ungoskribado) kaj la Tokipona Signolingvo; ankaŭ por neoficialaj skribsistemoj
janlili
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:15 pm
Location: China

Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janlili » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:20 am

toki!

I found that the Toki Pona Chinese writing system is so so so terrible!
I mean a good Chinese writing system should be elegant and understandable for those who don't even know what Toki Pona is(that is hard, just kidding)!
And I just can't stand that "la" is written as "喇", and "li" as "哩"!!

So I designed a writting system with Classicla Chinese(文言文), and now sharing it with those who think the same way as me.

If you have any suggestions or and error that you've found, you can cantact me.

Examples:
kulupu nimi pi toki pona.(the dictionary of Toki Pona)
合字之言善。

jan ni li olin sina tan ni: sina wile ala moku e telo suwi mi.(that person love you because you don't want to drink my sweet water.)
人此則愛汝自此:汝欲非食于水甘吾。

tempo kama la mi moli.
時至而吾死

120 words and characters:

Latin Alphabet 文言
a or kin 矣
akesi 蜥
ala 非
alasa 獵
ale or ali 凡
anpa 下
ante 異
anu 或
awen 續
e 于
en 與
esun 易
ijo 物
ike 歹
ilo 器
insa 中
jaki 穢
jan 人
jelo 黃
jo 有
kala 魚
kalama 音
kama 至
kasi 木
ken 可
kepeken 以
kili 果
kiwen 石
ko 塵
kon 空
kule 色
kulupu 合
kute 耳
la 而
lape 眠
laso 青
lawa 首
len 衣
lete 寒
li 則
lili 小
linja 絲
lipu 頁
loje 紅
lon 在
luka 手
lukin or oko 目
lupa 孔
ma 地
mama 祖
mani 錢
meli 女
mi 吾
mije 男
moku 食
moli 死
monsi 背
mu 鳴
mun 月
musi 悅
mute 衆
nanpa 數
nasa 迷
nasin 道
nena 出
ni 此
nimi 字
noka 足
o 兮
olin 愛
ona 其
open 始
pakala 損
pali 爲
palisa 枝
pan 穀
pana 予
pi 之
pilin 感
pimeja 黑
pini 終
pipi 蟲
poka 近
poki 容
pona 善
pu 經
sama 似
seli 火
selo 膚
seme 何
sewi 上
sijelo 形
sike 圓
sin or namako 新
sina 汝
sinpin 前
sitelen 文
sona 知
soweli 獸
suli 大
suno 日
supa 案
suwi 甘
tan 自
taso 獨
tawa 往
telo 水
tenpo 時
toki 言
tomo 室
tu 二
unpa 交
uta 口
utala 鬥
walo 白
wan 一
waso 鳥
wawa 威
weka 遠
wile 欲
Last edited by janlili on Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.

janKipo
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janKipo » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:36 pm

Very nice and mostly very good, with a few oddities. I don't suppose we can hope for much in the way of direct connection with the particles of tp and something like 'pu' is not going to translate (I do hope the book involved is jing, at least). But some things remain (these resukts are basded on a not very nuanced checkup) : the character given for 'a' doesn't seem to connect at all, although the one given for 'o' seems to fit perfectly. The character for 'akesi' picks up the "ugly", which is alsmost never used and misses the reptile, which is used a lot. Why "hundred for 'ale/i"? Surely there is an a"all' or at least a myriad. Sometin=mes the right word is far down the list, but I have no idea how the lsit was made, so I can't tell if this means that people wuld only get to the right reading late in the game (e.g., for 'en' and 'esun'). 'poison' is possible for 'jaki' but other things seem more likely. "Come " comes late and "become" not at all in the character for 'kama'. "sticky" is not the best notion for 'ko', which is dust as often a glue. I don't get the character for 'kulupu' at all, since it seems nver to get to getting togethr and the like. 'kute' is more often by far "hear" than "ear". Similarly, "lukin' in the sense of "see. look at, atec." is much more common than eye" either way. The character for 'nena' looks to be just a mistake for a similar (to my eyes) one for "hill, mountain" and certrainly doesn't seem to have any relation to 'nena'. Nor does the one for 'pali' seem to fit. The character for 'poki' seems to be that for 'ken' for the most part and very little to do with boxes. In many cases, the concept in the Chines is pretty clearly not the central or most common one in tp (and conversely), but we can't expect very good fits, I suppose. All that being said, this is a very nice job. Thanks.

janlili
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:15 pm
Location: China

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janlili » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:05 am

janKipo wrote:Very nice and mostly very good, with a few oddities. I don't suppose we can hope for much in the way of direct connection with the particles of tp and something like 'pu' is not going to translate (I do hope the book involved is jing, at least). But some things remain (these resukts are basded on a not very nuanced checkup) : the character given for 'a' doesn't seem to connect at all, although the one given for 'o' seems to fit perfectly. The character for 'akesi' picks up the "ugly", which is alsmost never used and misses the reptile, which is used a lot. Why "hundred for 'ale/i"? Surely there is an a"all' or at least a myriad. Sometin=mes the right word is far down the list, but I have no idea how the lsit was made, so I can't tell if this means that people wuld only get to the right reading late in the game (e.g., for 'en' and 'esun'). 'poison' is possible for 'jaki' but other things seem more likely. "Come " comes late and "become" not at all in the character for 'kama'. "sticky" is not the best notion for 'ko', which is dust as often a glue. I don't get the character for 'kulupu' at all, since it seems nver to get to getting togethr and the like. 'kute' is more often by far "hear" than "ear". Similarly, "lukin' in the sense of "see. look at, atec." is much more common than eye" either way. The character for 'nena' looks to be just a mistake for a similar (to my eyes) one for "hill, mountain" and certrainly doesn't seem to have any relation to 'nena'. Nor does the one for 'pali' seem to fit. The character for 'poki' seems to be that for 'ken' for the most part and very little to do with boxes. In many cases, the concept in the Chines is pretty clearly not the central or most common one in tp (and conversely), but we can't expect very good fits, I suppose. All that being said, this is a very nice job. Thanks.

Thank you very much for suggestions.
I do like 'pu' being writen as '經'. that is much better than '書'.
let me anwser other questions.
For 'a', as an interjection and an emotion word, '矣' is good. I thought about '啊' at first of course, but it is rarely used in Classical Chinese, then I thought about ‘嗟乎’ and ‘噫’, but they are interjections for painful feelings. Maybe ‘哉’ is better for expressing emotion, I suppose, but it is not a single vowel, and is too strange to being a interjection word. I don't know.
As for‘akesi’, I thought about ‘龍’, but that is something we admire. now I think ‘蜥’ is much more better of course, ‘醜’is odd.
‘ale’is ‘百’because it can be used as 100, and 100 seems enough for ‘all’, because in Classical Chinese, ‘three’ stands for ‘many’. So I gave up ‘萬’or ‘千’.
I am sorry I don’t understand the sentences ‘Sometin=mes the right word is far down the list, but I have no idea how the lsit was made, so I can't tell if this means that people wuld only get to the right reading late in the game (e.g., for 'en' and 'esun').’, could you explain more precisely?
‘poisons’ for ‘jaki’ is because I can’t find proper word for ‘dirty’, maybe a Classical Chinese expert can tell. I considered ‘污’, but it means a river named 污 and ‘to dye’.
For ‘kama’, I cannot find a character with both the meaning of becoming and coming.
For ‘ko’, now I think ‘塵’ meaning ‘dust’ is better, thank you.
For ‘lukin’ and ‘kute’, I chose between ‘聞、看’ and ‘耳、目’. I think ‘耳、目’ is better because it is more easy to write. simplicity is good.
For ‘kulupu’, ‘合’ surely means getting together.
For ‘nena’, ‘出’ means ‘growing toward the above’ (in <說文解字>, it said ‘進也。象草木益滋,上出達也。’) and it can means bumpy I guess. I use this character hoping make this word in contrast with ‘lupa’ as ‘入’。
For ‘pali’ ,’爲’ means ‘doing’.
For ‘poki’, ‘容’ means ‘contain’

janKipo
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janKipo » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:35 pm

pakala! I was just on the last line of my reply, when everything vanished, not to be recovered. So, here is what I remember of my responses.
容 seems to be a perfect match for English "can", both permission and container, but it does work for 'poki'.
容 is listed simply as "for" with not further explanation, but it hard to imagine how that fits with "do, make"
入 is listed merely as "enter" which works somewhat with 'lupa' as door and probably contrasts with 出, which must mean "exit" somewhere it all its "out" (but never "up") meanings.
合 may do for 'kulupu', though it wanders pretty far afield from classes and masses and unions and the like.
The problem with 目 is that 'oko' is likely to stay around and mean "eye" while 目 never means "see". Similarly 耳 never means "hear". So maybe accuracy has to trump simplicity (or maybe not).
I am not a fan of the 'ale' = 100 school (and 1000 or 10 000 would be worse, though the latter is certainly used for totalities in Chinese). Is there really no Chinese word for just "all" or "whole" or "totality"?
I agree that "dragon" is bad for 'akesi' even though probably its most common use was for (Western) dragons. 'lizard' is just right (it's the meaning of the source word in Dutch).
On 'a', avoiding the negative words is good, but still, the word you use for 'o' seems just right.
A brief stay on the flip side of the system I used to check your list provides these suggestions for words that still trouble me:

ali 凡 (half a dozen alternatives, this is just the simplest)
jaki 秽 (the only single word that fits)
kulupu 组 (a couple others also fit pretty well)
kama 成 (others, none perfect, of course)
lupa 孔 (several others if you don't like using the Master's name, but it is simple and covers just about the right territory).
nena 山 (what I expected, though it looks less like your character than I remembered)
pali 做 (and others)

I don't know what to do about the particles. Chinese must have a way of dealing with the problem that tp has for which the particles are designed, but apparently it is different and so there are not a subject (or predicate) particle and a direct object particle. I have no idea how Chinese form imperatives or expresses wishes and exhoratations, so I don't know what to look for for 'o'
'la',on the other hand, seems to be exactly 才

janlili
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:15 pm
Location: China

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janlili » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:12 pm

janKipo wrote:pakala! I was just on the last line of my reply, when everything vanished, not to be recovered. So, here is what I remember of my responses.
容 seems to be a perfect match for English "can", both permission and container, but it does work for 'poki'.
容 is listed simply as "for" with not further explanation, but it hard to imagine how that fits with "do, make"
入 is listed merely as "enter" which works somewhat with 'lupa' as door and probably contrasts with 出, which must mean "exit" somewhere it all its "out" (but never "up") meanings.
合 may do for 'kulupu', though it wanders pretty far afield from classes and masses and unions and the like.
The problem with 目 is that 'oko' is likely to stay around and mean "eye" while 目 never means "see". Similarly 耳 never means "hear". So maybe accuracy has to trump simplicity (or maybe not).
I am not a fan of the 'ale' = 100 school (and 1000 or 10 000 would be worse, though the latter is certainly used for totalities in Chinese). Is there really no Chinese word for just "all" or "whole" or "totality"?
I agree that "dragon" is bad for 'akesi' even though probably its most common use was for (Western) dragons. 'lizard' is just right (it's the meaning of the source word in Dutch).
On 'a', avoiding the negative words is good, but still, the word you use for 'o' seems just right.
A brief stay on the flip side of the system I used to check your list provides these suggestions for words that still trouble me:

ali 凡 (half a dozen alternatives, this is just the simplest)
jaki 秽 (the only single word that fits)
kulupu 组 (a couple others also fit pretty well)
kama 成 (others, none perfect, of course)
lupa 孔 (several others if you don't like using the Master's name, but it is simple and covers just about the right territory).
nena 山 (what I expected, though it looks less like your character than I remembered)
pali 做 (and others)

I don't know what to do about the particles. Chinese must have a way of dealing with the problem that tp has for which the particles are designed, but apparently it is different and so there are not a subject (or predicate) particle and a direct object particle. I have no idea how Chinese form imperatives or expresses wishes and exhoratations, so I don't know what to look for for 'o'
'la',on the other hand, seems to be exactly 才


I'm so sorry for you typing your reply again.
one thing has to be clear.we are talking about Classical Chinese(文言文) here, not any Modern Chinese(現代漢語) like Mandarin and Cantonese. And that is important! They even looks like two irrelevant languages. If you want to search for a character's meaning to Classical Chinese, I recommend this website to you, (zdic.net), it has the Modern in ‘基本解釋’and ‘詳細解釋’, and also the Classical in ‘康熙字典’and ‘說文解字’。

爲 certainly have the meaning of “do and act”, it has the words “助紂爲虐” ,helping the tyrant doing evil things.
容 don't have the meaning of being possible for something to happen. so it is not a perfect match for English ‘can’.
I really doubt if 出 fits. maybe 凸 meaning bulge out is better, but it has the phrase 凸出, so..... I dont know. both ok I guess.
合 is ‘combine, unite, join; gather’(said at zdic.net).
目 do mean ‘look’, while 耳 don’t mean ‘hear’, but in Classical Chinese, it is quite common to turn a noun into a verb meaning 'to use/be the noun’.
100 for ale is bad really, 凡 is really a perfect fit.
I see you recommend 兮 for ‘a’, I do think it fits really good , but what’s for “o”? I think it seem Chinese , both Modern and Classical , do not have imperatives words . but for getting other’s attention , a common emotion word can fit. I don’t know.
ali 凡is perfect
jaki 穢 is much better than 毒
kulupu 組 not good. 組 is some kind of silk or ribbon, the Modern Chinese word “組織group” originally means ‘sew with the silk ’. I think 合 is better , it do mean ‘unite/gather’.
kama 成. don't have the meaning of coming. bad.
lupa 孔 is much better really. btw, nowadays no one really avoiding any Master's name for taboo, hahaaha.
nena 山.. I just can‘t help imaging me calling my nose hill . How big is it !!
pali 做. really bad. 做 is an informal word for 作. And 作 meaning both happen/arise and act/do. 爲 is the best , I still think so.

particles:
li 則 is a almost perfect fit. it is said‘又《韻會》助辭,又然後之辭。《論語》行有餘力,則以學文。’in 《康熙字典》. so it means ‘somebody then doing something’.
e 于 is very good. it means ‘for/towards/to/in/at’
la 而 good . it is for connecting two sentences. it means ‘because/at the same time/and then/and’. 才(纔) is bad , in Classical , it means ‘only’and ‘cut’ and ‘wood’, so disturbing..
pi 之 the best it can be. 'A之B' means 'B of A', you just have to change the order.

janKipo
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janKipo » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:42 am

Thanks for the clarification; here is a tendency (I fall into it) to think of Chinese as unchanging from Yao to now, even when I know that certainly pronunciation has changed and basic units have become at least disyllabic.

Too bad about the particles. The matches don't seem very good but then it is hard to imagine what would work if Chinese didn't use a similar system to tp. (How does Chinese deal with the apparently unbroken string of words of apparently the same class to get them to break into noun phrases and verb phrases, adjectives and prepositions -- to use familiar terms? Are there in fact fairly clear subclassifications of living words that correspond as much as need be to nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.?). I'm sorry my (modern) suggestion for 'la' didn't work, since it was the best match in the lot.

In any case, we now have a list that is pretty much able to stand against objections. Nicely done. Thanks!

janlili
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:15 pm
Location: China

Re: Classical Chinese writing system

Postby janlili » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:08 am

janKipo wrote:Thanks for the clarification; here is a tendency (I fall into it) to think of Chinese as unchanging from Yao to now, even when I know that certainly pronunciation has changed and basic units have become at least disyllabic.

Too bad about the particles. The matches don't seem very good but then it is hard to imagine what would work if Chinese didn't use a similar system to tp. (How does Chinese deal with the apparently unbroken string of words of apparently the same class to get them to break into noun phrases and verb phrases, adjectives and prepositions -- to use familiar terms? Are there in fact fairly clear subclassifications of living words that correspond as much as need be to nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.?). I'm sorry my (modern) suggestion for 'la' didn't work, since it was the best match in the lot.

In any case, we now have a list that is pretty much able to stand against objections. Nicely done. Thanks!


I am not a expert in Classical Chinese. I guess Chinese turns a string of words into noun phrases and verb phrases and others, just by language intuition. I don't know. :D
thank you


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