sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Signs and symbols: Writing systems (hieroglyphs, nail writing) and Signed Toki Pona; unofficial scripts too
Signoj kaj simboloj: Skribsistemoj (hieroglifoj, ungoskribado) kaj la Tokipona Signolingvo; ankaŭ por neoficialaj skribsistemoj
jan-ante
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote: My point is just that, if we are to teach tp to others, we need to make no additional demands other than that of the language itself.
but tp is also a kind of exotica like other scripts and religions. i would reformulate your point like this: the sets of conlang "nuts" and conscript "nuts" overlap just a little, so we cannot attract too many "folks" for conlang with a mandatory conscript. is it what you mean?
I'm not sure where this cultural xenophilia comes from: boredom, greener-grass syndrome, inferiority complex, etc., but it goes back thousands of years and persists.
do you mean the western strave for exotics or the spread of latin script?
janKipo
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by janKipo »

I suspect the overlap is more than a little bit, but, in any case, yes, a mandatory conscript is off-putting to a number of people who might otherwise be attracted to a conlang (though it might attract a very few who might otherwise not be attracted).
Western culture, since at least the Athenian high point, has been apt to look to the East (well, Egypt at least) as the source of the good, the beautiful, and the true and still does today in many ways (less so now than in my youth, the 50s and 60s, when I made a living as a guru for rent).
jan-ante
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:I suspect the overlap is more than a little bit, but, in any case, yes, a mandatory conscript is off-putting to a number of people who might otherwise be attracted to a conlang (though it might attract a very few who might otherwise not be attracted).
it depends on the script. the most common motivation for script creators is to be new. giving this motivation i would agree with you. but what if the script will provide more options/advantages? this was the reason for the question i made in the 1st message in this topic.
Western culture, since at least the Athenian high point,
ha-ha. "the Athenian high point" does not belong to western culture, neither generally, nor in context of (latin) script we discuss here. western culture starts at middle ages, and their "look to the East" was in fact directed to the west, to spain.
janKipo
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by janKipo »

This is a fascinating discussion, but is getting a little beyond the scope of this forum. Is there a place to argue about historical trends, etc.?
I agree that there may be characteristics of a conlang that would require (or, at least, make highly advantageous) the use of a nonstandard script (6 voiceless sibilants, for example), but the language must then have something extraordinary to justify the added effort to learn it. Perhaps also, if it were learned as a spoken language first, so that the need for the distinctions were clear, the strange notation would be acceptable. But, in general, such creations are rare (I am reading about a language for termites and one for birds and also ones for various other non humanoid types elsewhere, but they stand out exactly because they are uncommon).
As for the historical discussion, enough to say that I don't really see your comments as objections to mine, beyond some quibbles about words.
jan-ante
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:This is a fascinating discussion, but is getting a little beyond the scope of this forum. Is there a place to argue about historical trends, etc.?
well, go to "ijo ante", if you wish
I agree that there may be characteristics of a conlang that would require (or, at least, make highly advantageous) the use of a nonstandard script (6 voiceless sibilants, for example), but the language must then have something extraordinary to justify the added effort to learn it.
well, the (optimal) script depends on language, but it also depends on surrent progress. when the people of middle east used clay tablets the cuneiform was a common standard for many scripts (ranging from logographic to alphabetic). when the paper era started, the people switched to the letters built of lines, as we have at the moment. my question:

Code: Select all

could the current progres in writing tools (computers etc) cause a shift of script and  writing paradigm from the letters we have now (latin, cyrillic, arabic, etc) to some really different system impossible with paper and pen?
janSilipu
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by janSilipu »

Well, when computer writing systems are the norm, then I would recommend them, but, for now, I stick with the current norm. I would suggest different systems for places with different norms except that the Latin alphabet seems to have found some role almost everywhere and it is best to keep things simple. That alphabet has no inherent advantage, only extrinsic ones, but those are enough to keep it alone in primers and general use. Other systems may have a place in the higher realms of usage, like Latin and Greek in monuments, say.
jan-ante
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by jan-ante »

janSilipu wrote:Well, when computer writing systems are the norm, then I would recommend them, but, for now, I stick with the current norm. I would suggest different systems for places with different norms except that the Latin alphabet seems to have found some role almost everywhere and it is best to keep things simple. That alphabet has no inherent advantage, only extrinsic ones, but those are enough to keep it alone in primers and general use. Other systems may have a place in the higher realms of usage, like Latin and Greek in monuments, say.
so many words but no answer to my question. it is rather a manifestation of your views to some matters moderately related to the problem. may be another topic could give an answer: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2153
janKipo
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by janKipo »

Could they? Of course, though we cannot yet see what that change might be. Until the electronic (or whatever comes after that) tools are universal, no change is really likely and, even then, the weight of past records (backward compatibility) will slow any move to radically new notation. One might think about the possibilities a bit, however. Will visual language continue to be linear, like spoken, or might it become multidimensional, like (it is said) conceptualization? If linear, will it stick to phonetics or move to ideographic (perhaps with real pictures, even movies to carry the message)? If multidimensional, what will be the structures and the nodes? How will it correlate with spoken language (if at all)? Much fun to think about, but not yet very profitable (except, getting a head start is never bad).
jan-ante
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Re: sitelen nasin sin mi pi toki pona:

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:Could they? Of course, though we cannot yet see what that change might be.
but we can
Until the electronic (or whatever comes after that) tools are universal, no change is really likely and,
electronics is already universal for text writing, while the paper is still used for reading
One might think about the possibilities a bit, however.
one can think a lot too
Will visual language continue to be linear, like spoken, or might it become multidimensional, like (it is said) conceptualization?
good question
If linear, will it stick to phonetics or move to ideographic (perhaps with real pictures, even movies to carry the message)?
this is independent on linearity. there are also a methods of phoneticla hieroglyphics, like dotsies
If multidimensional, what will be the structures and the nodes? How will it correlate with spoken language (if at all)?
well, computer can swiftly convert one form to another
Much fun to think about, but not yet very profitable (except, getting a head start is never bad).
well, thinking about the ways to improve toki pona is not very profitable either, but so many people do this
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