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toki pona shorthand - Page 3 - Toki Pona Forums

toki pona shorthand

Signs and symbols: Writing systems (hieroglyphs, nail writing) and Signed Toki Pona; unofficial scripts too
Signoj kaj simboloj: Skribsistemoj (hieroglifoj, ungoskribado) kaj la Tokipona Signolingvo; ankaŭ por neoficialaj skribsistemoj
janMato
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby janMato » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:01 pm


jan Misite
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Misite » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:09 pm

You make a very good point about the proper modifiers. That means I don't need to worry about making them cross the previous word to capitalize them! :) (if the word begins with jo or ju.) Except with Jo, we would need to cross that to show it was proper and not just 'jo'; I think for consistencies sake we might just say to cross and disjoint all proper nouns.

I just had a eureka moment; if we say all proper nouns must be disconnected from the word that follows then, unambiguously, we would resolve the case of word-internal jo/ju.

I will get to the writing and scanning of people's names tomorrow. Keep in mind the ultracursive mode is more calligraphy than shorthand anyways, and it's only there because phrasing is a real issue that Gregg shorthand tackles for English and there are so many cut-and-dried phrases in tp, or at least there seem to be, that I thought an analogous solution would be at least theoretically desirable. I don't really think anyone will write out whole connected sentences. The memory load of keeping a sentence in mind would probably harm execution.

I have gone back to the drawing boards, I think I'll probably borrow symbols from one of the Japanese shorthands. It should be easier to write than Gregg but would still follow it's writing direction.

As for your own writing, in reality, if you can read it that's good enough. Even if you get pretty sloppy the quirks and idiosyncracies you introduce into your execution won't matter for this. They might even help you distinguish words! The word outlines are pretty distinctive in my opinion. If you can consistently keep letters distinguished that should be more than enough, even if it is not based on the minimal properties in my own writing ie [+/- curve][+/- ascending] -- for instance, length becomes important in your writing of a letter, or only in certain words. Some letters can probably even merge without too much hindrance to reading--it's not like tp has a lot of minimal pairs, or even a large lexicon. In English shorthand, I don't think most people who learn Pitman shorthand can read each other's writing. The real issue is learning to write with a loose hand.

EDIT: Looking at the Juju example I realize that it would not be OK to separate the 2 'ju's, because then, would it be "..Ju jo" or "Juju"? I will have to choose a curved shape for it then so that I can reduplicate without issue (straight lines cannot reduplicate because [+/- length] is not a distinguished attribute within the system; now two curves together on the other hand are always distinguishable and resolvable).

EDIT2: I also just realized that it will be difficult to make ju work as a connector with words that begin in vowels because they will attach to the 'j-'. ja/je happens enough inside words to make these potentially confusing strings. Even if they're uniquely parseable it's something of a wall of text. Nevermind how to work -n/w-/u- into the picture. :cry:
Last edited by jan Misite on Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jan Misite
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Misite » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: On one's own writing...
The thing to keep in mind is that it will help you to have, above all else, one way to write a word and stick with it. You can play with it to your liking but no-one is going to demand that you write it one way or another and you don't have to do penmanship drills. When i talk about features I mean what you look at in your own writing to recognize that word as being that word. I am not talking about a super abstract thing (although I might like to think gregg's symbols are simple and natural for the hand to write, that is no precondition to writing something...but what I'm really trying to say is that you don't really need to think of this as alphabet that represents something else, anymore than an English reader need to spell words properly to understand them. Although schools mightily emphasize the spelling of words, English is one of the languages where actual spelling matters much less than you would expect. Similarly, don't worry about getting the letters "exactly right" , so long as you can write the letters and the words quickly and you can check this by reading back your own writing.

In a way, shorthand demands an aesthetic similar to a signature, or graffiti--you have to write quickly. It doesn't need to be legible like you might think.

I think the easiest thing I could do would be to write out a chart showing how to connect strokes.


Re: 'ju'/'jo'
I think the easiest thing is to just say that it's a good practice to generally break off phrases at the first word to begin with an A or E or I vowel, with possible "exceptions" including some particles like 'e' and 'en'.

jan Akesimun
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Akesimun » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:34 pm

ni li pona mute. taso mi ken kama sona ala e ona. sina pali e lipu pi kama sona la jan li ken kama sona pona e ona. :)
Yo estuve aquí.

janMato
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby janMato » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:58 pm

I actually tried this one evening. I found the symbols that differ only by size to be really difficult. pu and pi for example. sike and sin are also pretty close. But I got a complement from someone in my Icelandic study group on the general look of the script.

jan Akesimun
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Akesimun » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:26 pm

Hm.. Think you could upload some examples? I've been trying to learn the latest script he put up.
Yo estuve aquí.

jan Misite
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Misite » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:20 pm

Hello, sorry I have been gone for so long. I finished up my final project, graduated and got a job (albeit a temporary one). Which means I have a little time now to think about other stuff.


Here are some of the top posters' names in shorthand. Also, bigger scans of the words pi, pu, sike and sin. Hope this helps. By the way, I won't be changing anything unless people want me to.

Kuti
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby Kuti » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:49 pm

yes i know i didn't tokiponized my name really good :oops:

jan Misite
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby jan Misite » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:38 pm

:evil: :twisted: :D

I think in a TP text people would still call you jan Kuti, I just sort of blanked out on this.

A very shorthand-y thing to do in this situation would be to make an abbreviated form for 'jan' like, just use 'j' in front of a proper modifier to mean the same as 'jan'. I don't think that would lead to any confusion. (These sort of meta-rules about abbreviation are a pretty big part of most shorthands.)

If anyone wants me to write out stuff like poems or sentences I could do that.

Kuti
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Re: toki pona shorthand

Postby Kuti » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:16 am

I know someone who call me jan Kusi.

On this forum i didn't wrote "jan" in the name, but you can use it.
I don't really know if it is a part of the name or not.

On Second Life i used "jan" in the same, but non tokiponians thought jan was my name :? so remove it :arrow:


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