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Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree - Toki Pona Forums

Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Signs and symbols: Writing systems (hieroglyphs, nail writing) and Signed Toki Pona; unofficial scripts too
Signoj kaj simboloj: Skribsistemoj (hieroglifoj, ungoskribado) kaj la Tokipona Signolingvo; ankaŭ por neoficialaj skribsistemoj
janMato
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Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janMato » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:34 pm

See below tree for numbers from 1 to 100 in pseudo-roman.
Image
0: ala = 0,
1: wan = 1 , W
2: tu = 2 , T
3: tu wan = 2 + 1 , TW
4: tu tu = 2 + 2 , TT
5: luka = 5 , L
6: luka wan = 5 + 1 , LW
7: luka tu = 5 + 2 , LT
8: luka tu wan = 5 + 2 + 1 , LTW
9: luka tu tu = 5 + 2 + 2 , LTT
10: luka luka = 5 + 5 , LL
11: luka luka wan = 5 + 5 + 1 , LLW
12: luka luka tu = 5 + 5 + 2 , LLT
13: luka luka tu wan = 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , LLTW
14: luka luka tu tu = 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , LLTT
15: luka luka luka = 5 + 5 + 5 , LLL
16: luka luka luka wan = 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 , LLLW
17: luka luka luka tu = 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 , LLLT
18: luka luka luka tu wan = 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , LLLTW
19: luka luka luka tu tu = 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , LLLTT
20: mute = 20 , M
21: mute wan = 20 + 1 , MW
22: mute tu = 20 + 2 , MT
23: mute tu wan = 20 + 2 + 1 , MTW
24: mute tu tu = 20 + 2 + 2 , MTT
25: mute luka = 20 + 5 , ML
26: mute luka wan = 20 + 5 + 1 , MLW
27: mute luka tu = 20 + 5 + 2 , MLT
28: mute luka tu wan = 20 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MLTW
29: mute luka tu tu = 20 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MLTT
30: mute luka luka = 20 + 5 + 5 , MLL
31: mute luka luka wan = 20 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MLLW
32: mute luka luka tu = 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MLLT
33: mute luka luka tu wan = 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MLLTW
34: mute luka luka tu tu = 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MLLTT
35: mute luka luka luka = 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 , MLLL
36: mute luka luka luka wan = 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MLLLW
37: mute luka luka luka tu = 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MLLLT
38: mute luka luka luka tu wan = 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MLLLTW
39: mute luka luka luka tu tu = 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MLLLTT
40: mute mute = 20 + 20 , MM
41: mute mute wan = 20 + 20 + 1 , MMW
42: mute mute tu = 20 + 20 + 2 , MMT
43: mute mute tu wan = 20 + 20 + 2 + 1 , MMTW
44: mute mute tu tu = 20 + 20 + 2 + 2 , MMTT
45: mute mute luka = 20 + 20 + 5 , MML
46: mute mute luka wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 1 , MMLW
47: mute mute luka tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 , MMLT
48: mute mute luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMLTW
49: mute mute luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMLTT
50: mute mute luka luka = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 , MMLL
51: mute mute luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMLLW
52: mute mute luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMLLT
53: mute mute luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMLLTW
54: mute mute luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMLLTT
55: mute mute luka luka luka = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 , MMLLL
56: mute mute luka luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMLLLW
57: mute mute luka luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMLLLT
58: mute mute luka luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMLLLTW
59: mute mute luka luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMLLLTT
60: mute mute mute = 20 + 20 + 20 , MMM
61: mute mute mute wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 1 , MMMW
62: mute mute mute tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 , MMMT
63: mute mute mute tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 + 1 , MMMTW
64: mute mute mute tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 + 2 , MMMTT
65: mute mute mute luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 , MMML
66: mute mute mute luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 1 , MMMLW
67: mute mute mute luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 , MMMLT
68: mute mute mute luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMLTW
69: mute mute mute luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMLTT
70: mute mute mute luka luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 , MMMLL
71: mute mute mute luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMMLLW
72: mute mute mute luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMMLLT
73: mute mute mute luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMLLTW
74: mute mute mute luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMLLTT
75: mute mute mute luka luka luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 , MMMLLL
76: mute mute mute luka luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMMLLLW
77: mute mute mute luka luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMMLLLT
78: mute mute mute luka luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMLLLTW
79: mute mute mute luka luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMLLLTT
80: mute mute mute mute = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 , MMMM
81: mute mute mute mute wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 1 , MMMMW
82: mute mute mute mute tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 , MMMMT
83: mute mute mute mute tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 + 1 , MMMMTW
84: mute mute mute mute tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 2 + 2 , MMMMTT
85: mute mute mute mute luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 , MMMML
86: mute mute mute mute luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 1 , MMMMLW
87: mute mute mute mute luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 , MMMMLT
88: mute mute mute mute luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMMLTW
89: mute mute mute mute luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMMLTT
90: mute mute mute mute luka luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 , MMMMLL
91: mute mute mute mute luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMMMLLW
92: mute mute mute mute luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMMMLLT
93: mute mute mute mute luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMMLLTW
94: mute mute mute mute luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMMLLTT
95: mute mute mute mute luka luka luka = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 , MMMMLLL
96: mute mute mute mute luka luka luka wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 1 , MMMMLLLW
97: mute mute mute mute luka luka luka tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 , MMMMLLLT
98: mute mute mute mute luka luka luka tu wan = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1 , MMMMLLLTW
99: mute mute mute mute luka luka luka tu tu = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 2 , MMMMLLLTT
100: ali= 100, A
Last edited by janMato on Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:16 pm

open la ni li suwi. taso ni kama li ike tawa mi: jan li nimi 'mute' e nanpa li nimi 'ali' e napa. tan ni pini la pini la ni li jaki.

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janMato » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:53 pm

mi pilin e sama.

ken la jan Sonja li kama sona e nimi "ali" lon ni: jan pi kalama musi "Violent Femmes"

You can all just kiss off into the air, sina o pakala e kon!
Behind my back I can see them stare, jan ante li lukin e mi monsi mi
They'll hurt me bad but I won't mind, jan li pana e ike tawa mi, taso mi pilin e ni : ale li sama
They'll hurt me bad they do it all the time, tenpo ale la jan li pana e ike tawa mi
Yeah yeah, they do it all the time, pona! pona! tenpo ale la, tenpo ale la, li pana e ike
I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record, ona li toki e : "mi sona awen e ni: sina jan pakala"
Oh yeah well don't get so distressed, pona? mi pilin e ni: ale li sama.
Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed pona? mi pilin e ni: sina pona...ala!
I take one one one 'cause you left me. mi moku e wan tan ni : sina weka e mi
And two two two for my family. ...e tu, e tu, tawa jan pona mi
And 3 3 3 for my heartache ... e tu wan, e tu wan tawa pilin ike pi olin pini mi
And 4 4 4 for my headaches ... e tu tu, e tu tu tawa pilin ike pi lawa mi
And 5 5 5 for my lonely .. e luka, e luka tawa pilin ike sama ni : ale li weka e mi
And 6 6 6 for my sorrow,... e luka wan, e luka wan tawa pilin ike pi telo oko mi
And 7 7 7 for no tomorrow ... e luka tu, e luka tu tan ni : tempo kama li kama ala
And 8 8 8 I forget what 8 was for... e luka tu, wan e luka tu wan tawa ni : mi sona ala
And 9 9 9 for a lost god ... e luka tu tu, e luka tu tu tawa jan sewi ni : mi sona ala
And 10 10 10 for everything everything everything everything ... e luka luka, e luka luka tawa ali tawa ali tawa ali

The Violent femme should have known that "100, 100, 100 is for everything, everything, everything"

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby aikidave » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:46 pm

I like the Roman Numerals in TP, or should I say TP Numerals?
MLT is less confusing than 'mute luka tu'
Zero should be 'ala', correct? 100 can be 'ali'.

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janMato » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:55 pm


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jan Josan
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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby jan Josan » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:54 pm


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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janKipo » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:27 pm

NIce one!
But to the issue at hand. I don't think any proposal for "big" numbers can work for tp unless it meets these requirements:
1. it uses decimal place notation (need for the one place it is actually necessary: addresses, including dates)
2. uses a different syntax from that used for 'ala, wan, tu, luka, mute, ale' (needed to keep tp "pure')
3. does not use tp word stock but some from another source (purity again)
4. uses the numeral words adjectivally (in keeping with use of other foreign words).
In addition, it would be nice if there were shortcut words for "orders of magnitude," covering the practical roughly E+/- 42, iirc
Something that does this may not get accepted, but I can't imagine anything that doesn't being.

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janMato » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:38 pm


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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janKipo » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:46 pm

Well, I shoulda said "at least decimal," since, if our cultural carriers are computer geeks, we need to go to hexadecimal and have words for dek, el, zen, trit, qat and quin -- or whatever they are calling them now. Unidecimal doesn't seem to help much. We also need -- for addresses again -- all the letters used for such things, like apartments and so on.
Of course, tp does have a (rather limited and only roughly specified) conculture, tied in with its "philosophy." Within that conculture, big numbers play at most a role as names for objects (telephones, buildings, days). Within the wider noncon culture, there may be other uses, either ignored or otherwise dealt with in the conculture. Whether tp has to deal with these and, if so, how, are serious questions about the future of tp. For the moment, the aim is to introduce as much as necessary and open room for as much as possible, while doing as little damage as possible to the central language. For now, this seems to be just to introduce numbers as foreign adjectives and to leave aside all operations on them. That is, not to to math in tp. We can consider that addition later, if the need arises (cf. the eternally deferred status of mathematical sections of Lojban).

In doing this, the need for non-tp expressions is automatically a part of the process. To use tp expressions in yet another sense complicates the central language unduly, and -- as a look will tell -- makes for unusably long number expressions. Personally, I am now at the point of suggesting apriori number words (consonants x vowels, say) and the tpization of the international order-of-magnitude prefixes (if I could find the list again). And I think we should just read the numbers off as strings (or with inserted oom markers for clarity) -- no 'pi' but maybe a word for decimal points.

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Re: Roman Numerals and Christmas Tree

Postby janMato » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:03 pm

Ah, you simultaneously make and demolished my point.

If I'm right that an established convention will win, then yeah, all foreign conventions are extremely well established and will have an edge over anything proposed in tp, by Sonja or otherwise. This point probably explains why cultures tend to borrow words rather than invent their own when they encounter new technologies that are established in other cultures.

On an aesthetic level though, I don't like TP-ified loan words. They feel like cheating (going beyond the 123 words) and they are often etymologically unrecognizable. Will this be a minimalist language when we have 123 words and 10,000 eponyms?

Maybe I should start calling my self jan pi pana pi jan sewi (since Matthew is "gift of god", (sort of) transparent, although that sounds rather arrogant) Maybe jan pi pali nanpa -- using my profession as my name like Smith or Baker.


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