A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Signs and symbols: Writing systems (hieroglyphs, nail writing) and Signed Toki Pona; unofficial scripts too
Signoj kaj simboloj: Skribsistemoj (hieroglifoj, ungoskribado) kaj la Tokipona Signolingvo; ankaŭ por neoficialaj skribsistemoj
jan-ante
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by jan-ante »

janJan wrote:I find this two-letter code quite enticing ; I had looked at a simple "remove the vowels" solution, saw that was not one to one, and, before trying to tackle that, I discovered your solution. Is there a current stable version for the table ?
thank you. the quasi-official verison is 00
Image
could you give some critical comments to this version? e.g., is kj for kili too bad or no? could il for kili be better?
janKipo
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by janKipo »

I expect 'il' for 'kili' would be easier to learn, unless the mere oddity of 'kj' helped make it stick.
Once you start getting away from first two letters or dropping vowels and such easy patterns, there is a temptation to use more of the bare spaces in the chart, brought on by the uneven distribution of works in tp across the alphabet, so using e and i and u and w more, even if they don't exactly fit (j for i, w for u, in some of the simple patterns for example). I don't expect that this would regularize things much, but it might give a rule which had fewer anomalies.
jan-ante
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by jan-ante »

janKipo wrote:I expect 'il' for 'kili' would be easier to learn, unless the mere oddity of 'kj' helped make it stick.
to be or not to be: that is the question
also, the il is an acceptable combination for other words, like pilin. may be it is one more reason to keep it vacant
janKipo
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by janKipo »

Yeah, at a certain point, its inherent conventionality comes to the fore and personal choices take over. Though, the more I look at this, the better I like it as a good accomodation to the facts. Nice job, if I haven't said that before. I've become particularly fond of the solution for the "poke" pair (hip pocket?).
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jan Josan
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by jan Josan »

I have a question about how you deal with proper names: if I have a name run into two letter codes, it's not always possible to know where the name ends and the words begin. So far I have been leaving a blank after names because of this...

As interesting as this coding is, I didn't really have a practical use for it until I started naming lots of computer files. with these codes it becomes really easy to have a file named with the first sentence of text etc. the only problem is the further limitations of file naming, which reserves many symbols and varies from system to system. I'm wondering if you've tried using the non-tokipona letters-- for instance something like this:

a -- d
la -- x
li -- 1
o -- v
e -- y
pi -- b
would yield:

mama sona Walasi Lapila pi kulupu Mima li toki e ni
mmsoWalasiLapila_bkpMima_1tkyni

a a a mi sona e sina
dddmisoysa

tenpo kama la mi tawa
tnkmxmitw

jan ale o kama lukin e suno
jnalvkmluysn
jan-ante
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by jan-ante »

jan Josan wrote:
As interesting as this coding is, I didn't really have a practical use for it until I started naming lots of computer files. with these codes it becomes really easy to have a file named with the first sentence of text etc.
interesting application
I have a question about how you deal with proper names: if I have a name run into two letter codes, it's not always possible to know where the name ends and the words begin
for your application you could try them in upper case totally: jJOSANfpayijpo
a -- d
la -- x
li -- 1
o -- v
e -- y
pi -- b
pomt. but i suggest f for li, because f has a nice hook protruding upwards. it makes the letter easily distinguishable. also, v could be used for version, e.g.: tnkmxmitwv013. you could consider z instead

actually, (as i wrote much earlier) it could be different styles for encoding separators, and you suggested one of them, particularly suitable for your application. i am going to collect different styles in a single table
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jan Josan
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by jan Josan »

All great suggestions. Thanks for this handy little code!
raspakant
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by raspakant »

Hi; the two letter code sounds to me like a great idea; should someone wanted to do this, and although not very much in line with general TP philosophy, it would allow creating long words using the 123 stems, and so express, in its written form, nearly all words you need even for more specific levels of communication; perhaps these cluster words might be made of series two letter codes separated by slashes, or whatever; if I may add, also single capital letters might be used , sometimes, to make even shorter clusters or shorter written phrases;
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janKipo
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by janKipo »

And here it goes! Sorry, to notice the old cycles coming round again, but ... Happily, so far this seems to be just about telegraphic writing style, since many of these clumps would not be separate pronounceable. As a matter of readability, I think that clumping will be even less readable than the already rather opaque basic system. And adding caps just complicates matters unnecessarily. Which does remind me to ask what we are to do with foreign words in all of this.
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Re: A ranged possibility: two-letter codes

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:Nice stats. What corpus (I'm sure it says in there, but I don't even read Cyrillic very well)?
I can't find the corpus the guy used in the thread. And well, when people are saying..."мой мозг, мой мозг! Он сейчас взорвётся*"...maybe you don't want to know...

* lawa insa mi! lawa insa mi li open wawa sama pi poki pakala wawa!

Lots of talk about Ziph's law. One guy says, if you calculate the distribution of words, it breaks Ziph's law (the tail should be longer). I think its obvious why... it's because some words aren't really pairs of words, they're compound words. If the distribution treated jan, pona, and jan pona (when used to mean friend) as 3 separate words, we'd probably get Ziph's law. As it is, all we have is the distributions of words and parts of words. At least one post in that thread seemed to be agreeing with me.

Interestingly Ziph's law shows up in ecology when counting which species are most succesful. Makes sense that some words are more fit for use than others and some words fill a incredibly narrow niche.
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