Job 1.1-10 translation

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WasoPimeja
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Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:51 am

toki!

I have attempted to translate the beginning of the book of Job, for practise. I would love to get some feedback on this. There are some things I am unsure about. See questions below.

1

1. mije li lon ma Usu. nimi ona li Jope. jan Jope li pona mute li pali ala e ike. ona li olin e jan sewi Jawe.
2. jan Jope li kama jo e jan lili mije tu tu tu wan e jan lili meli tu wan.
3. ona li jo e soweli mani mute e jan pali mute. ona li suli mute lon ma pi kama suno.
4. tenpo mute la jan lili mije pi jan Jope li moku li pali e musi lon tomo. ona mute li toki tawa jan sama meli: 'o kama! o moku lon poka pi mi mute!'
5. moku en musi ni li pini la jan Jope li toki e nimi sewi tawa ona mute. kama suno la ona li moli e soweli tawa jan sewi Jawe li toki e ni: 'ken la jan lili mi pali e ike li weka e sewi tan pilin ona'. jan Jope li pali e ni lon tenpo ale.
6. tenpo suno wan la jan lili pi jan sewi Jawe li kama tawa ona. jan sewi Satan li lon poka pi ona mute.
7. jan sewi Jawe li toki tawa jan sewi Satan: 'sina kama tan nasin seme?' jan sewi Satan li toki: 'mi kama tan ma.'
8. jan sewi Jawe li toki tawa jan sewi Satan: 'sina lukin e jan mi pi nimi Jope? jan ala li sama ona lon ma. ona li pona mute li pali ala e ike.
9. taso jan sewi Satan li toki: 'jan Jope li olin e sina tan seme?
10. tenpo ale la sina awen e ona e tomo ona e ijo ona anu seme? sina pona e pali ona. soweli mani mute ona li lon ma ale'.

...

- I am a bit unsure about how to use 'ona' unambiguously. Ex., in 3., does it refer unambigously to Job, since he is the subject of the preceding sentence? Or can it be seen as referring to the children, since they were mentioned last? How about in 6.?

- How would you say 'to bless (someone)'? I have used 'toki e nimi sewi tawa' in 5., but it feels a bit unclear/awkward. I also tried just using 'pona' transitively in 10. Thoughts?

- Can 'tan seme' mean 'from where', or would it rather be taken as 'why' in any context? I try 'tan nasin seme' in 7 to avoid that ambiguity.

- 'my servant' - 'jan mi'...?
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

janKipo
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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:06 pm

A mixture of theological and philological fussiness. Basically very good.
‘jan sewi’ for “God” poses problems and ‘jan sewi Jawe’ some others. “God” is probably best just ‘sewi’, leaving the compounds for saints and priests and maybe angels (etc.) ‘Jawe’ might be be better as ‘sewi lawa’ “Lord” to avoid offense. Note ‘Jawe’ doesn’t even occur until verse 6, but it is thick there.
‘Jope’ isn’t bad for most English readers, though the original seems to be ‘Eyova’ or some such.
I’m not sure ‘olin’ works for “fearing” but I don’t have a better suggestion.
‘kama jo’ sounds like buying at a market; just ‘mama e’ (matching the original involves passives, which we can’t do and are unnecessary anyhow). The strict number system is restrictive and messy: “seven” is just ‘luka tu’
If you start the ‘ona’ in verse 2, it is clearer later, since it goes on in a pattern. But strictly speaking you can’t be sure it is Job in 3 and there is no sure way to guarantee it except, sayin ‘Jope’ again (maybe ‘ona wan’ would work, but that might mean “one of them -- the children” ) But the story is pretty clear in providing context.
Well, we could spell out the animals and their numbers with a little effort, but I think this t the right approach here, just “lotsa’ Of course, I would say ‘suli mute jan ali pi ma pi kama suno’ but that may be pushing things too far.
don’t need ‘lon poka’;’poka’ is probably enough (although ‘lon poka’ may well be accurate in this case).
“bless” is tricky, since we bless God by saying “Thanks” and God blesses us by helping us out. I don’t get “spoke the holy name for them” for “sanctify” or “bless”. Maybe ‘talked to God on their behalf and sacrificed...” The distributive nature of these parties -- each son has one in his house but they all come -- doesn’t come across but may b more trouble than it is worth. Ditto that he made one sacrifice for each and so on.
“sons of God” is still ‘sewi’ but then there is a stretch of Jawe, so ‘ona’ covers a point. Not sure whether Satan counts as a ‘jan sewi -- probably does if other angels do at this point in history.
I miss the “wandering up and down and to and fro” but I like mixture ‘en’. ’tan seme’ can mean “whence?” but the fuller form is safer.
‘lukin ala lukin’. don’t need ‘pi nimi’ in standard pu. since ‘jan mi Jope’ is standard stuff.
Satan is more pointed ‘Jope li kute ala kute e sina tawa ala kin?’
or ‘pana e pona tawa pali ona’ ‘ijo ona li mute lon ma’ (just alternatives closer to the original).
Nice.

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WasoPimeja
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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby WasoPimeja » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:01 pm

pona! Thank you for that solid feedback. I think I have covered most of it in the following version, including some new devices of my own.


1. mije li lon ma Usu. nimi ona li Jope. jan Jope li pona mute li pali ala e ike. ona li kute e sewi.
2. ona li mama e jan lili mije luka tu e jan lili meli tu wan.
3. ona li jo e soweli mani mute e jan pali mute. ona li suli mute lon ma pi kama suno.
4. tenpo mute la jan lili mije pi jan Jope li moku li pali e musi lon tomo. ona mute li toki tawa jan sama meli: 'o kama! o moku lon poka pi mi mute!'
5. moku en musi ni li pini la jan Jope li toki tawa sewi tan ona mute. kama suno la ona li moli e soweli tawa sewi li toki e ni: 'ken la jan lili mi pali e ike li weka e sewi tan pilin ona'. jan Jope li pali e ni lon tenpo ale.
6. tenpo suno wan la jan lili sewi li kama tawa sewi. jan sewi Satan li lon poka pi ona mute.
7. sewi li toki tawa jan sewi Satan: 'sina kama tan nasin seme?' jan sewi Satan li toki: 'mi kama tan ma.'
8. jan sewi Jawe li toki tawa jan sewi Satan: 'sina lukin ala lukin e jan mi Jope? jan ala li sama ona lon ma. ona li pona mute li pali ala e ike.
9. taso jan sewi Satan li toki: 'jan Jope li kute e sina tan seme?
10. tenpo ale la sina awen e ona e tomo ona e ijo ona anu seme? sina pana e pona tawa pali ona. soweli mani mute ona li lon ma.


A bit unsure about how the first sentence in verse 6 works still. I couldn't have 'kama tawa ona', as I believe that would seem like referring to Job still. And 'jan lili sewi'? I don't know...

Not sure how I could explain the idea of Satan wandering on earth in the past, without too much wordiness. Perhaps he could just answer 'tenpo pini la mi tawa lon ma'?

Regarding 'Jope li kute ala kute e sina tawa ala kin?', I don't understand how 'tawa ala kin' works.
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:05 pm

WasoPimeja wrote:toki!
2. jan Jope li kama jo e jan lili mije tu tu tu wan e jan lili meli tu wan.
3. ona li jo e soweli mani mute e jan pali mute. ona li suli mute lon ma pi kama suno.

...

- I am a bit unsure about how to use 'ona' unambiguously. Ex., in 3., does it refer unambigously to Job, since he is the subject of the preceding sentence? Or can it be seen as referring to the children, since they were mentioned last?


toki!

To me, it is ambiguous. In those situations I repeat the name (jan Jope), or say "ona mute" (if "mute" makes the difference, so I would refer to the children). I might also consider "ona ni" for the last introduced thing/person.

jan Apu li jan lili.
ona li jan pona pi jan Sulu.
ona ni li jan sona.

mi tawa. awen pona!
jan Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:13 pm

WasoPimeja wrote:toki!
- How would you say 'to bless (someone)'? I have used 'toki e nimi sewi tawa' in 5., but it feels a bit unclear/awkward. I also tried just using 'pona' transitively in 10. Thoughts?

- Can 'tan seme' mean 'from where', or would it rather be taken as 'why' in any context? I try 'tan nasin seme' in 7 to avoid that ambiguity.

- 'my servant' - 'jan mi'...?


I would say "mi pana e nimi pona tawa sina." It encompasses the meaning of "I comfort you", though... maybe "mi pana e nimi sewi tawa sina"? It's the first time I come across this. It reminds me of "to welcome someone". Maybe that could be "mi pana e nimi pi kama pona tawa sina"? (Or "mi tawa sina e kama pona." ? Highly experimental...) If so, "to bless" could be "mi pana e nimi pi kama sewi tawa sina." (Or: "mi tawa sina e kama sewi.) This would imply that "kama sewi!" would be the greeting "bless you!". I don't know the definite answer, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

"tan seme" means "from where", yes. (And also "why".) Note that "tan nasin seme" could also mean "because of which way (of doing)" (or even "how come?"), so you can't dodge the ambiguity that easily.

A servant is a worker, right? -> jan pali

Someone who "serves" in the sense of "giving" would be a "jan pana".

mi tawa. awen pona!

jan Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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WasoPimeja
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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby WasoPimeja » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:41 pm

toki, jan Tepan o!

Tank you for your input. I'll ponder this a bit. I have changed 'jan mi' to 'jan pali mi'. I guess it is important to state both that Job is a worker/servant to God, and also that God thus has a sense of 'ownership' towards him.

For 'bless', I agree that it is a difficult case, but I still think my 'pana e pona tawa' is decent. I.e. to actively yet figuratively 'give goodness'. I mean, to bless is to try to confer some goodness from yourself to someone else, right?

I'll remember to use 'ona mute', 'ona ni', 'ona mute ni' diligently to minimise pronoun ambiguity henceforth.



sewi o pana e pona tawa sina!

mi tawa
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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WasoPimeja
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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby WasoPimeja » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Verses 11 - 15, with questions:

11. taso o luka e ijo ona! ni la sina ike tawa ona.

luka = touch. Because that seems to be the word used in the original. But perhaps 'pakala' is better? The sense is to do harm obviously.
ni la = then / in this case (?)

12. sewi li toki tawa jan sewi Satan: 'o lukin! sina ken luka e ijo ona. taso sina ken ala luka e sijelo ona.' jan sewi Satan li tawa.

13. tenpo suno wan la jan lili mute pi jan Jope li moku lon tomo pi jan lili mije suli.

Is there a better/neater way to put 'the oldest brother'? Not that it is an important detail, really, but it is somehow important to make clear that they are not at their father's here.

14. jan li kama tawa jan Jope li toki: 'tenpo pini lili la soweli sina li pali lon ma. poka la soweli ante sina li moku e kasi.

soweli = oxen, soweli ante = donkeys... I guess there is no way to make 'donkey' unambigous, so I just took the easy way out here. Perhaps 'soweli pali' could be used for both, with 'ante' for the donkeys. Or does it seem good as it is? Later, I put 'camel' in pretty clear terms, just because that is quite easy to do. Perhaps that will seem stylistically inconsistent.

15. jan ike mute li kama li kama jo e soweli ni li utala e jan pali sina. mi wan taso kama weka. tan ni la mi ken toki e ni tawa sina.'

kama li kama jo e = came and took (?)
utala e = attack (?)
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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Re: Job 1.1-10 translation

Postby janKipo » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:21 pm

For "wander", ,nasin' is sometimes used (oddly). 'Tawa ala kin' just means "for nothing,' i.e. "without rewards"

,pilin' is also natural for "touch" but maybe not for "strike".¡utala' has been used for this.'pakala' is then implicit
The oldest brother is ,mije sama nanpa wan"
I wouldn’t,t worry about distinguishing animals unless it makes a difference, but here they all get taken.
'Mi taso' is enough


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