About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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KNTRO
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby KNTRO » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:22 am

jan Kipo,

Thank you so much for taking so much time about this book!

So, in a few words, we could say this book is not recommended to learn Toki Pona, couldn't we? It's a pity there are books like this, because they may confuse people who really want to learn this language.

Again, thanks for your time and dedication! ;)
sina toki kepeken Epanja, la sina kama pona lon kulupu sin pi ilo Telegram a! ;)

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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:02 am

Yes, this is my least favorite book. I haven’t gone through it more than I just did, but I fear, from what I have heard, that it contains other howlers as it goes one. And many negative things baout ordinary tp, even including some of Sonja’s and, of course (see Lope’s note on Forums), any of mine.

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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:52 am

KNTRO wrote:The book is by jan Pije and jan Lope. You can read it and download it from here.


toki!

This is an old version. The current issue can be found here: https://jan-lope.github.io/Toki_Pona_lessons_English/

pona!
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:57 am

KNTRO wrote:WTF? :?: I guess no one ever needs to say I am food in Toki Pona, despite its well known ambiguity.

But there's a lot more of crazy things in that book. You're gonna have fun for sure. :lol:


toki!

Please see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&p=16304#p16304

I use the apostrophes in my lessons to identify a predicate that does not consist of a verb. As I wrote "But that's not an official rule."

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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby jan_Lope » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:16 am

KNTRO wrote:But there's a lot more of crazy things in that book. You're gonna have fun for sure. :lol:


Unfortunately, such a statement has nothing to do with objective and concrete criticism. Unfortunately, it is not helpful.
pona!
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby somehowGeekyPolyglot » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:37 am

jan_Lope wrote:toki! This is an old version.


toki!

So I'd like to ask you something about the new version.
This question is of purely interrogative nature only.
(And I do know that stating something like that can also cause the impression to some that I only emphasize that one because I simply intend to say the opposite. But not everyone does things like these, far from it...)

The new version also contains words like monsuta = monster (among other meanings).
In case not all of these words and/or meanings are included in the "Official Toki Pona Word List", is there any particular way to distinguish between those which are included and those which aren't? By that, I mean if it is possible to find this information in the new version of your book. Of course one could compare it to the "Official Word List", but that's not what I am asking about at this point. (And btw., not intending at all to spawn any discussion about the pros and cons of sticking to "official" words only. Simply asking because of what I wrote below).

When learning any other language, I also like to pay some attention to, for example, some jargon-y/slang-y/whatever :) words. Even if they wouldn't be used by everyone. It's just that I really love being able to make a difference between these and those. This is something I consider a really Helpful Tool of Meaningful Communication. I also wouldn't use English/German/... words that are jargon-y/slang-y/etc. in every conversation with everyone, instead, I would use them sometimes only.

pona!
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby jan_Lope » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:58 am

somehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:The new version also contains words like monsuta = monster (among other meanings).
In case not all of these words and/or meanings are included in the "Official Toki Pona Word List", is there any particular way to distinguish between those which are included and those which aren't? By that, I mean if it is possible to find this information in the new version of your book. Of course one could compare it to the "Official Word List", but that's not what I am asking about at this point. (And btw., not intending at all to spawn any discussion about the pros and cons of sticking to "official" words only. Simply asking because of what I wrote below).


toki!

In the list of official words there are slight differences between different lessons. I published the first edition of my lessons about 2004, based on the lessons of jan Pije. Later other lessons were written by other authors. Many ideas flowed into my lessons. The official Toki Pona Book of Sonja Lang did not appear until 2015. Despite some inaccuracies in this book, I adapted my lessons to it. You are right that some words, like "monsuta", do not appear in the official list, although they are often used. I will mark these vocabulary accordingly in the next big update lessons. Thanks for the hint.

pona!
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby somehowGeekyPolyglot » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:00 am

jan_Lope wrote:toki!

In the list of official words there are slight differences between different lessons. I published the first edition of my lessons about 2004, based on the lessons of jan Pije. Later other lessons were written by other authors. Many ideas flowed into my lessons. The official Toki Pona Book of Sonja Lang did not appear until 2015. Despite some inaccuracies in this book, I adapted my lessons to it. You are right that some words, like "monsuta", do not appear in the official list, although they are often used. I will mark these vocabulary accordingly in the next big update lessons. Thanks for the hint.

pona!


toki!

Now I remember... yes, the official book of Sonja is, relatively speaking, rather new.

And apart from that, simply wanted to mention that whenever there is mutual understanding (as opposed to making a Milchmädchen-Rechnung like "he asked a question about something that I could have done differently=he personally attacks me"), then this is something that does make me happy.

"Milchmädchen-Rechnung" for those of you who speak another language and not German: This literally means "the calcuation of a milk girl". Like a girl who sells milk, but is still very young, so she could get many things wrong.

So "Milchmädchen-Rechnung" can be used for things like "jumping into premature conclusions".
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KNTRO
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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby KNTRO » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:56 pm

jan_Lope wrote:
KNTRO wrote:But there's a lot more of crazy things in that book. You're gonna have fun for sure. :lol:


Unfortunately, such a statement has nothing to do with objective and concrete criticism. Unfortunately, it is not helpful.


Not offending attempts from me! Sorry if that seemed to be rude! :oops:

What I tried to say is: there's a lot of crazy things in your book. Why crazy? Because they're not official but they're treated so seriously as if they're in fact official! :P That's very confusing to me, especially because the official book is just from 2014 and your book is much older! Do you get what I'm trying now to say?

  • Your unofficial book: 2004
  • The Official book: 2014

What? :shock: So some things that I have read in your book are not official after all, even if your book has been published a decade before than the official one?! WTF?! :shock: :shock:

Well, that is what confuses me. And that is why I found your book to be very crazy in the world of Toki Pona.

Again, I apologize if my surprise was not properly understood. ijo ike mi. :oops:
sina toki kepeken Epanja, la sina kama pona lon kulupu sin pi ilo Telegram a! ;)

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Re: About the "Toki Pona: The Simple Way Of Life" book

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:38 am

jan "KNTRO" o, toki!

Sonja published a draft of Toki Pona in 2001. Bryant Knight (a.k.a. "Pije") published a course in 2003. Around 2004 I translated this course into German and published it, together with the English version, in printed form. In the following years I completed my lessons and fixed bugs.

When Sonja published her book in 2014, I adapted my lessons accordingly. However, I was somewhat disappointed by the book as it contains some inaccuracies and contradictions. I've tried to avoid these inaccuracies. I also try to use general grammatical terms (see also viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2715).

Some years ago I started writing a parser for Toki Pona sentences (please see https://jan-lope.github.io/Toki_Pona-Parser/ ). This parser analyzes Toki Pona sentences. It checks the spelling and grammar. Furthermore, it finds possible grammatical variants. That is, it finds grammatical ambiguities. It helps you to form correct and clear Toki Pona sentences. I always test this parser with sample sentences from different Toki Pona lessons and other good texts. The knowledge from this programming flowed again into my lessons. In my opinion, a simple language must be logically structured. There should be no exceptions. Toki Pona has one exception, that is the "missing" li after mi or sina as subject. Other exceptions don't make sense to me.
pona!
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