Genesis 1 translation

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:47 pm

jan wiko wrote:God is not mentioned by Sonja but I like this simplification.


Copy-pasting from the official dictionary:

sewi NOUN area above, highest part, something elevated
ADJECTIVE awe-inspiring, divine, sacred, supernatural

So, "sewi" = "divine" nominalized is the "the divine". (She also uses it like this in the introduction of the book as far as I remember.)

jan wiko wrote:Well, it depends of the translation because in French (Segond) it is clearly moving.
In hebrew the word מְרַחֶפֶת means glide or fly so tawa may not be so bad.


I didn't know that. Thanks!

jan wiko wrote:This style is the only one I know so: mi pu a!. But I feel free to adapt some words or to improve the style in some sentences.


Very good! (Me, too.) I will factor that into subsequent comments. :)

jan wiko wrote:I didn't that o has a complex history.


Thanks to pu, it's quite simple now, isn't it? (i.e. the way you understand "o").

jan wiko wrote:ni li ni.


Sounds like English "that's it", but only an Anglophone can understand this. What about "ni li kama", perhaps?

jan wiko wrote:jan sewi li nimi selo.


I suppose "nimi *e* selo" (or "pana e nimi tawa selo").

jan wiko wrote:ni li tenpo suno pi nanpa tu.


In pu, you would see the "pi" dropped. (Pije would keep it.)

jan wiko wrote:
janKipo wrote:So maybe ‘o suno li lon’ (which gives a nice literary effect)

Indeed! I love it!


If you want to stick to Sonja's style, use "suno o lon". There is no "o ... li ..." in pu, neither in Pije's lessons. Only Kipo keeps bringing it up as far as I know. (Perhaps one of his community standards?)

jan wiko wrote:Maybe you're right but the idea was the following: it (ni) was (li) so (ni). Indeed, everything is in its place.


Ah, now I understand. "Everything was ordered." ? "ale li pona." could do the trick. Or as I said before, "ni li kama."

That's it for now. :)

mi tawa.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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jan wiko
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby jan wiko » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:51 pm

jan Kipo o,

“kiwen unpa” seems great for plants but not from fruits. Maybe “wan kiwen” as hard organ works… or just “kiwen”.
I will pu to try to figurate the best way to use o. Should I write suno o lon. suno li lon. or o suno lon. suno li lon.?

PS (pu): mi o moku e ijo pona. is an example given by Sonja so both are correct I guess. I will nevertheless try to make the text consistant.

---

jan Tepan Neta Pelin o,
I did most of the corrections. 8-)

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:If you want to stick to Sonja's style, use "suno o lon". There is no "o ... li ..." in pu, neither in Pije's lessons

You convinced me to go back to the first version!

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:Or as I said before, "ni li kama."

I use this sentence now :)

---

Thank you, I have greatly improved the translation thanks to your feedback.

kulupu ni li pona mute a!
Last edited by jan wiko on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
jan Wiko

janKipo
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:08 pm

Just a note on Tepan. So far as I recall, ‘o Sent’ is in the first Pije, from which I and most old-timers learned. If not there, it is certainly in several correspondences with Sonja, filed away some where in the pile at the bottom of Forums. It also seems to have some history in Esperanto, from which Sonja has taken a lot of this muddle (though not the whole conditional mood shtick, thank God!). That seems to be what makes ‘o’ the right mark of optatives, since -u is used for imperatives and -us for “conditionals” (whatever the heck those are -- it covers a lot of ground, apparently).

‘mi o moku e ijo pona’ “I should eat better” is a puzzle and a half. The translation suggests that it has simple informative function and so might be more clearly stated as ‘mi wile moku e ijo pona’. It does, however. - because of the “should” -- have some directive force, so, if we don’t use ‘wile’, which state that force to be in effect, we might reasonably use an imperative form, as here, with the oddity that the person being directed is also the directer, often called hortative mode: “Lets eat good stuff!”. The simple optative “Would that I ate good stuff” or “May I eat good stuff” or whatever doesn’t really seem to fit here, since it is a wish too easy to fulfill. That you don’t fulfill it (apparently) explains the exhoration, spurring you on to do what you should. In short, even the only example Sonja gives that is not obviously a vocative + imperative pretty clearly is one anyhow.

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jan wiko
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby jan wiko » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:30 am

Hi!
H had to make some questionable choices but I'm pretty proud of this part :)

luka luka tu tu
sewi li toki e ni: suno tu o lon selo sewi. ona toki tan ni: suno li tu e tenpo suno tan tenpo pimeja. suno ni o toki e tenpo sewi e tempo suno e sike suno.

luka luka luka
suno ni o kepeken lon sewi suli tan ni: ni li suno e ma. ni li kama.

luka luka luka wan
sewi li pali e suno suli tu. suno suli suli li lon tan ni: ni li lawa e tenpo suno. suno suli li lon tan ni: ni li lawa e tenpo pimeja. sewi li pali kin e suno lili lili mute.

luka luka luka tu
sewi li lon e ona tawa sewi suli tan ni: suno li suno e ma.

luka luka luka tu wan
ona li pali tan ni: suno tu li lawa e tenpo suno e tenpo pimeja li tu e suno tan pimeja. sewi lukin ni: ni li pona.

luka luka luka tu tu
ni li tenpo suno pini. ni li tenpo suno sin. ni li tenpo suno nanpa tu tu.


Only twelve verses left! But not the least!
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:33 am

Well, you probably go on to 2:3 to finish the story.

jan wiko wrote:luka luka tu tu
sewi li toki e ni: suno tu o lon selo sewi. ona toki tan ni: suno li tu e tenpo suno tan tenpo pimeja. suno ni o toki e tenpo sewi e tempo suno e sike suno.

Is ‘ona’ sewi or suno? In either case, I don’t undersrand ‘toki tan ni” “speaks because of this”. The original suggests maybe ‘ona (suno) li tawa ni:’ “they are for this”. Similarly later, except the ‘ni’ is unnecessary since we get a string of nouns. I’m not sure what signs are (‘sitelen'? ‘sona'? something complex?), but seasons are pretty surely ‘kipisi (or ‘wan’ for pu purists) pi tenpo sike’.

luka luka luka
suno ni o kepeken lon sewi suli tan ni: ni li suno e ma. ni li kama.


What is ‘kepeken' here for? Again, 'tawa’ “purpose” rather than ‘tan’ “cause”. similarly thrughout.

luka luka luka wan
sewi li pali e suno suli tu. suno suli suli li lon tan ni: ni li lawa e tenpo suno. suno suli li lon tan ni: ni li lawa e tenpo pimeja. sewi li pali kin e suno lili lili mute.


‘ona’, not ‘ni’ generally, this is just ‘suno suli suli’, not the whole previous sentence. Strictly, the lesser lights are ‘mun’ (as, indeed, is the moon, though not here yet) ‘kin’ probably after ‘suno lil lili mute’ since that is what is added on.

luka luka luka tu
sewi li lon e ona tawa sewi suli tan ni: suno li suno e ma.


Probably ‘ona’ is enough, rather than the whole ‘suno’. The ‘tawa’ with ‘lon’ is slightly jarring and also is awkward with the corrected ‘tawa ni’. Of course, ‘lon ... ‘lon’ is awkward, too. Maybe ‘pana ... lon’

luka luka luka tu wan
ona li pali tan ni: suno tu li lawa e tenpo suno e tenpo pimeja li tu e suno tan pimeja. sewi lukin ni: ni li pona.

‘tawa’ still

luka luka luka tu tu
ni li tenpo suno pini. ni li tenpo suno sin. ni li tenpo suno nanpa tu tu.


No problems except a continuing wonder about whther this should be ‘tenpo pi suno pini/sin’.

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jan wiko
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby jan wiko » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:33 am

toki!

’m not sure what signs are (‘sitelen'? ‘sona'? something complex?)

“sitelen” is indeed a good idea.

seasons are pretty surely ‘kipisi

Where do you see seasons? In my text only days, years and sacred days are mentioned.

What is ‘kepeken' here for? Again, 'tawa’ “purpose” rather than ‘tan’ “cause”.

It is true for “tawa”! “kepeken” is here to translate a French word but it seems uselss.

‘ona’, not ‘ni’ generally

'll reread my translation to check that.

The ‘tawa’ with ‘lon’ is slightly jarring [...] Maybe ‘pana ... lon’

Absolutely right!

No problems except a continuing wonder about whther this should be ‘tenpo pi suno pini/sin’.

I figured out that “tenpo suno sin” means new day and “tenpo pi suno sin” means time with new sun.
So I will add “pi” here. Moreover, “tenpo suno pini” could mean yesterday.

I'm really gonna reread the all to correct the mistakes :)
As always thank you!
jan Wiko

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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby jan wiko » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:49 am

Hi!
I don't have much time right now so I only did it the next day :)

luka luka luka luka
sewi li toki e ni: telo o pana soweli mute en waso o tawa sewi ma insa sewi suli.

luka luka luka luka wan
sewi li pali e kala suli e soweli ale pi tawa insa telo. sewi li lukin e ni: ni li pona.

luka luka luka luka tu
sewi li toki sewi e ona li toki ni: kala o kama mute lon telo en waso o kama mute lon kon.

luka luka luka luka tu wan
ni li tenpo pi suno pini. ni li tenpo pi suno sin. ni li tenpo suno nanpa luka.
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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:33 pm

jan wiko wrote:Hi!

luka luka luka luka
sewi li toki e ni: telo o pana soweli mute en waso o tawa sewi ma insa sewi suli.


You can use ‘mute’ for 20 (though I think it is a bad idea. Of course, I’d say ‘tute’ or ’tu ka’ but that is strictly a heresy.). ‘pana e soweli (? kala?)'. No ‘en’ between sentences (lore -- I can’t find it written anywhere). prob ‘lon insa pi sewi suli’ but the stack of prepositions there is hard to sort out. I miss the teeming.

luka luka luka luka wan
sewi li pali e kala suli e soweli ale pi tawa insa telo. sewi li lukin e ni: ni li pona.


I miss monsters, ‘monsuta’ and the other details as well

luka luka luka luka tu
sewi li toki sewi e ona li toki ni: kala o kama mute lon telo en waso o kama mute lon kon.


Probably ‘tawa ona’ with ‘toki’ whose direct object is the words said. “bless” is often ‘pana e pona’, ‘toki sewi’ tending to be prayer or liturgy. But not cast in stone, of course. Making a blessing a command does seem perverse, but otherwise just my previous worries about ‘o’ and ‘en'

luka luka luka luka tu wan
ni li tenpo pi suno pini. ni li tenpo pi suno sin. ni li tenpo suno nanpa luka.

This doesn’t give problems.

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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby jan wiko » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:52 pm

janKipo wrote:You can use ‘mute’ for 20 (though I think it is a bad idea)

I forgot about that numbering system. Why not!

janKipo wrote:“bless” is often ‘pana e pona’, ‘toki sewi’ tending to be prayer or liturgy.

Indeed it makes sense.

janKipo wrote:This doesn’t give problems.

I'm making some progress!

I corrected the errors related to “en”.

Thank you for your speed, your regularity and your very good advice!
jan Wiko

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Re: Genesis 1 translation

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:42 pm

toki, jan Wiko o!

I would happily make a read-through with comments when you're done. :)

mi tawa.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


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