Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:21 pm

toki, jan Waso Pimeja o!

WasoPimeja wrote:Ah, ok, I didn't know that. I thought it could be used both as a noun and a verb.


Many think (and do!) so. Plus, "pu" is also (incorrectly) used in order to express "correct", "according to the official book", because in English conversations you can read "this is not pu", so the expression is often translated word for word ("ni li pu ala") into some sort of pseudo Toki Pona.

WasoPimeja wrote:Interesting! I'd really like to read that article, if you get the chance to write it. Is it correct to assume that Sonja's style is more conservative, in a way? I mean, even though the book is relatively recent, she did invent the language.


I would definitely share. In the meantime, you could also check all occurences of "Pije" in my description of Toki Pona grammar in general. (See link "nasin-toki.md" in my signature.)

Sonja has removed some (but probably not all) anglicisms from Toki Pona that Pije's style still has, like "ona li lukin sama waso" for "she looks like a bird", speaking of word-for-word translations. She has cut down and fixed the number of words to 120 (but still mentions in the dictionary section "kin", "ali", "oko" and "namako" as synonyms for "a", "ale", "lukin" and "sin" without using them anywhere).

In general, I would call her style "simpler", because it is more regular and international in grammar (i.e. less English-ish). Therefore it seems more conservative, I would say.

The good thing about pu is that you will get soon an idea about what is "fake news" thrown around by some wannabe-grammarians and what is not.

WasoPimeja wrote:
The community standard has been to use ‘la’ without commas

I see. I'll try to just avoid those commas altogether then, as they are not strictly necessary.


There is no such thing as a community standard. There are various sources for learning Toki Pona, though. Pije doesn't use commas with "la"-phrases. But then again, he wouldn't allow "tan ni la" as a prepositional phrase + "la" either. The difference between Pije and Sonja in this regard goes beyond commas, is what I'm saying.


WasoPimeja wrote:
a direction quotation is a name and so needs a supporting noun and, thus, write ‘e nimi ‘o lukin...’’

Oh, I hadn't thought of that, but it makes good sense. I hadn't thought of using 'nimi' rather than 'ni' in this case either.


You can think of "ni" as "nimi (ni)" or "toki (ni)", because "ni" as a noun is "(ijo) ni" (the "ijo" is always dropped, except before "pi" as in "pi ijo ale"), and "nimi" and "toki" are "things", so "ijo" - "ni". Besides, "toki e ni" is... community standard. ;)

mi tawa.
Last edited by janTepanNetaPelin on Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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WasoPimeja
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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:48 pm

toki, janTepanNetaPelin o!

Just ordered the book! It'll be very interesting to compare the way it presents the language with jan Pije's lessons. He is clear about the fact that his teachings differ somewhat from the book, but doesn't go much into detail about how. I'll study a bit on your site while waiting.

I don't know about you, but I find it very interesting, and good, that there are different views, 'camps' - almost, regarding the way the language is to be, or can be, used. I've already noticed by reading different texts from different authors/translaters, that some are more adventurous and radical than others. Such tendencies tell me that the language, despite it's relative newness and small number of users, is alive. It also makes reading more interesting, I find.
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin, ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini kin.- Eccl. 1.10

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WasoPimeja
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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:59 pm

By the way,

I might have overlooked something, but I can't find what the non-anglicising alternative to 'ona li lukin sama waso' is? 'ona li waso lukin'?
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin, ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini kin.- Eccl. 1.10

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:47 pm

WasoPimeja wrote:toki, janTepanNetaPelin o!


You can call me "Tepan" if you like. :) (I can't change my user name.)

WasoPimeja wrote:Just ordered the book!


Cool! :)

WasoPimeja wrote:I'll study a bit on your site while waiting.


Questions and feedback are welcome.

WasoPimeja wrote:I don't know about you, but I find it very interesting, and good, that there are different views, 'camps' - almost, regarding the way the language is to be, or can be, used.


I do find it interesting, and this is also why I mention Pije in my grammar document. Unfortunately there are others who reject pu and claim that it's "wrong" and try to push their own dialect, claiming that it's still Toki Pona or the ominous "community standard", which makes it hard to chart those dialects.

WasoPimeja wrote:I might have overlooked something, but I can't find what the non-anglicising alternative to 'ona li lukin sama waso' is? 'ona li waso lukin'?


You do see though, that "ona li lukin sama waso" means literally that "she is seeing like a bird", right? :)

"ona li waso lukin" isn't that bad, actually. First, I would add "tawa" in the sense of "from the perspective of": "ona li waso tawa lukin" - "she is a bird from the perspective of the eye". I would also add a "sama": "she is like a bird from the perspective of the eye" - "she looks like a bird".

"ona li sama waso tawa lukin."
"tawa lukin la ona li sama waso."

mi tawa.
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janKipo
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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:59 pm

From the trends in the corpus, I would add ‘sama lukin waso’ “like a bird visually”, see the standards like ‘’pona lukin’ for “pretty”, etc. or ‘lete pilin’ for “feels cold” (to the touch). That change, except for the almost hard wired ‘pilin pona’ and ‘pilin ike’ are pretty standard in the corpus now, though not in Pije and not consistently in pu.

If you want to look at variations, I recommend the FAQ in tpnimi.blogspot.com, which covers the main ones (and some unmet suggestions for more). You might also look at Lope’s text, regularly touted in Forums, which are even more conservative (except when radically odd) than Tepan’s. Aside from minor vocabulary matters, however -- and grammatical interpretations of what is offered -- most people who follow various paths can read one another with no problems, often without even noticing that they are different. There is a community norm, but it is soft over most of its range.


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