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Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions - Toki Pona Forums

Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

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Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:14 pm

toki!

I'm trying to translate some Bible verses in order to improve my command of tp. I have come up with a translation for Ecclesiastes 1.10 that feels alright to me, but I have some questions about it.

English:
Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

My attempt in tp:
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a.' ante la, ona li kama li tawa weka kin lon tenpo pini.

- I know that 'ante la' should work for 'on the contrary'. Does that seem alright in this context?
- Is it clear that 'ona' refers to the preceding 'ni'?
- Is there a better way to say 'already' than inserting 'kin' like I've done?
- Could 'tenpo pini' (or, if possible, a better rendition of 'ages that were before us') be moved up, and become a la-clause following the existing one?
- If there are any other issues in my translation, I'd very much like to know!

WP
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:14 pm

Looks pretty good to me.
The ‘ona’ reference is grammatically tricky, since the ‘ni’ is inside a quote, not in the same sentence strictly, but I think it will work OK by context. It does in English, after all.
As a fussbudget, I would put the ‘kin’ after ‘lon tenpo pini’ for “already," since that is the contrast with the earlier ‘sin’ or so.
terminal ‘lon’ clauses, especially with time references, can always be moved to the front in a ‘la’ phrase, but this seems fine where it is. Extending it to a sentence would just add words.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:05 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:12 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:07 am

toki!

Thank you both for your feedback on this!

I use both the English Douay-Rheims translation and the Latin Vulgate when translating. Using 'ante la' is actually going against both, as they have 'for' and 'enim' (for, namely) respectively. I thought it would be clear to say 'on the contrary' to 'nobodys' statement, but expanding the sentence to include 'tan ni' is probably clearer and better.

Thus removing the 'ante la', my question regarding stacking la-clauses is no longer relevant. I know that 'lon tenpo pini' at the end of the sentence can become 'tenpo pini la' at the beginning of it, but I was unsure if something like 'ante la tenpo pini la...' would be appropriate?

I'll stick with 'kin' for the time being at least, and 'ali' rather than 'ale', to reduce the chances of me mixing it with 'ala'. I can't explain well why I think 'kin' fits after 'tawa weka', but perhaps it's the fact that putting the stress there, focuses on the passing of the action rather than of the time, which is more obscure or theoretical, if that makes sense.

I didn't know that comma rule with 'la' (or perhaps I had forgotten it). I'll remember it from now!

So what I have now is:

ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin, ni li sin a!' tan ni: ali li kama li tawa weka kin lon tenpo pini.

Thus keeping 'kin' in that spot for a somewhat esthetical reason, and 'tenpo pini' at the end since I don't see a good reason to move it forward into the spotlight. Focusing on 'ali' works a bit better in my eyes. If you still disagree, I'll change it. You two know the language far better than me :)

But wait a min... Now I have both '...e ni: ... tan ni: ...' within the same sentence. Does that work? Or could it now be taken that 'tan ni' refers to the reason behind 'nobody's statement?

Could I drop 'e ni'? I sometimes see just 'toki' in front of a quote, instead of 'toki e ni'. What is the actual difference? When translation from tp I'd say that 'e ni:' leads to an indirect quote, whereas 'toki:' introduces a direct quote, as in

'ona li toki e ni: '...'' - he said that ...
'ona li toki: '...'' - he said '...'

But I could of course be wrong. And how a tp - english translation would work is not necessarily relevant here.
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:39 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:11 am

toki!

Thanks a lot for this solid and detailed answer!

I know about the book ('pu', right?), and I will order a copy shortly. So far I have been using

http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/okamasona.php
and
http://tokipona.info

and other online resources about tp in English and Esperanto.

I see your point about the placement of 'kin' more clearly now. I'll correct it accordingly.
ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:34 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:52 am

Yeah, ‘pu’ is English, not tp, for the book, but people keep using it anyhow.
There is no rule in pu (I’m writing English) about commas and ‘la’, but Sonja does follow that rule in her half-dozen or so examples. The only problem is that she puts the comma on the wrong side, if she needs a comma at all. The community standard has been to use ‘la’ without commas, like ‘li’ and ‘e’, or to throw commas in rather randomly for aesthetic reasons, to break up too long stretches (possibly why used with sentences). In any case, the ‘la’ clearly goes with the condition, not the sentence (listen to it).
The cheap solution with direct quotes is to note that a direction quotation is a name and so needs a supporting noun and, thus, write ‘e nimi ‘o lukin...’’. This changes the grammar somewhat but simplifies the situation for later works. In particular, the quoted sentence now become a viable candidate for the referent of ‘ona’ and the ‘ni’ in the quote is clearly not, probably requiring ‘ijo ni’ to get back to what you want.

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Re: Ecclesiastes 1.10 + newbie questions

Postby WasoPimeja » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:16 am

ala li sin lon anpa suno. jan ala li ken toki e ni: 'o lukin! ni li sin a!' tan ni: ale li kama li tawa weka lon tenpo pini.- Eccl. 1.10


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