Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janU
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:44 pm

Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janU » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:00 am

0 ala
1 wan
2 tu
3 tu wan
4 tu tu
5 luka
6 luka wan
7 luka tu
8 luka tu wan
9 luka tu tu
10 wan ala, or wan ali
11 wan wan, or wan ali wan
12 wan tu, or wan ali tu
13 wan tu wan, or wan ali pino
14 wan tu tu, or wan ali tama
15 wan luka, or wan ali ka
16 wan luka wan, or wan ali luka en wan
17 wan luka tu, or wan ali luka en tu
18 wan luka tu wan, or wan ali luka en tu wan
19 wan luka tu tu, or wan ali luka en tu tu
20 tu ala, or tu sin wan ali
21 tu en wan, or tu sin wan ali wan
22 tu en tu, or tu sin wan ali tu
100 wan ala ala, or tu ali
110 wan wan ala, or tu ali wan ala, or wan kipisi wan sin tu ali
111 wan wan wan, or tu ali wan wan,


Extremely large numbers:

100000 10^5 luka ali

100001 10^5 + 1 luka ali wan

500000 5 X 10^5 luka sin luka ali

500001 5.00001 x 10^5 luka sin luka ali wan

1000000 1 X 10^6 luka wan ali

1000001 1 X 10^6 + 1 luka wan ali wan

5000000 5 X 10^6 luka sin luka wan ali

5000001 luka sin luka wan ali wan

602252000000000000000000 (avagadro's number) luka wan kipisi ala tu en tu luka en tu sin tu en tu wan ali

10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 10^100 (googol, ten duotrigintillion) tu ali ali

1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000 10^303 tu wan ala tu wan ali

... or alternatively: wan ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala ala


googolplex wan ala ala ali ali

googolplex^googolplex wan ala ala ali ali ali

googolplex^googolplex and one wan ala ala ali ali ali wan

☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐ wan ala ala mute ali wan ala

☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐☐ wan ala ala mute ali wan ala ala ali ali ali (a lot)

janKipo
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janKipo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:32 am

Some sketch of the system would help here, examples only point the way.
In general, no system far from the standard Western (American) is going to succeed. I can,t tell how close this is.

janU
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janU » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:20 am

So basically, one way to read the number is to just read out the digits.

For 0 through 9, I used:
0 ala
1 wan
2 tu
3 tu wan
4 tu tu
5 luka
6 luka wan
7 luka tu
8 luka tu wan
9 luka tu tu

This means that 11 would be wan wan, and 19 would be wan luka tu tu.
This becomes a problem a few times once you get into the twenties and fifties,

21 would be tu wan
22 would be tu tu

51 would be luka wan
52 would be luka tu
53 would be luka tu wan
54 would be luka tu tu

To avoid confusion, I added in the word "en", to make 21 tu en wan, and so on. If there is some other way to say numbers 1-9 it would make the whole thing a lot easier.

Next, to say larger numbers without having to read the whole thing out, I used the same pattern from scientific notation.
For example,

1 * 10^5 is one hundred thousand. So this would be luka ali. I used ali to mean 10 to the power of what ever number comes before ali.

5 * 10^5 is five hundered thousand. Or luka sin luka ali I used sin to mean multiplication.

Now there are two more ways to expand further, the first is by simply adding the number(s) on to the end, so one hundred thousand and one would be luka ali wan.

Then there is the way that is used in scientific notation.

1.1 * 10^6 means one million one hundred thousand, so I used kipisi to mean the decimal point. wan kipisi wan sin luka wan ali

I know made it sound way too complicated here, but it really is not much more difficult to learn than any languages number system, and it follows a pattern.

janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janMato » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:46 pm

Yeah, but can you express:

bodhisattva (बोधिसत्व or बोधिसत्त) —10^37218383881977644441306597687849648128
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_large_numbers

since a number is a specific thing as specific as a jan Mato (there can only be one!), why not use proper modifiers, e.g.

nanpa Posisapa

mi wile e moku pi ma Mesiko kepeken suli pi nanpa Posisapa.

janKipo
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janKipo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:59 pm

How does your desire for Mexican food use a very large number? For what? (Wherdja get that one for bodhisattvas? Really long gone!)

TNTErick
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:10 pm

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby TNTErick » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:36 am

My proposals:
1. Count with the preexisting words with doubledigits. That means we tear down a decimal digit into two, five and anything else. The first digit indicates if there is five, ie: ala or luka. The second is 0~4, ie.: ala, wan, tu, tu wan, tutu.

So here's how we count:
ala
wan
tu
tu wan
tu tu
luka (ala)
luka wan
luka tu
luka tu wan
luka tu tu
wan ala ala.

1234: wan ala-tu ala-tu-wan ala-tu-tu.
3.14159: tu-wan lili ala-wan ala-tu-tu ala-wan luka-ala luka-tu-tu.

2. another proposal is not using any words at all, as we have precisely 10 consonants in toki pona.
The series 'kstnpmjlw represents the meaning 0~9, and the vowels are listed as aeiou.
0 e'a
1 eka
2 esa
3 eta
4 ena
5 epa
6 ema
7 eja
8 ela
9 ewa
10ke'a.

1234 kositena.
3.14159 takanekipowu.

janKipo
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Extremely large numbers. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:59 pm

Well, of course I like the abacus number system (biquinary) but not the mix with thee additive digits. I would rather have two more digits. (‘si' and ‘po’, say). The binary code for digits is a simplification in some ways but makes for even longer numbers. And dropping the initial ‘ala’ sets the whole scheme off right at the start. So I prefer my version of the same general idea. I also like order-of-magnitude words to deal with long complex cases. All that aside, this is one of the better suggestions.

The second system is in some ways even better, except that it can’t be done. The second syllable of a word cannot begin with the null consonant. (basic rule). To be sure, the null consonant is occasionally a glottal stop between words, but not consistently and never within a word. On the other hand, except when reading out strings of digits (phone numbers, say) zero is almost never required, because the place is specified for each digit, without needing to rn through all the zeros. But the rest of the words here are generally impossible by the other rules of phonology: there cannot be any of ‘ji’, ‘wo’, ‘wu’ or ’ti’ and many of the remaining syllable are already assigned standard tp words, which we should try to avoid mucking with if possible. At best, the system could word with ‘a’ and ‘e’, but that is not much help.
Why are the consonants not in alphabetic order (or some other reasonably obvious order)? Adding memory issues to. the rest of the system seems just self-defeating.
This system takes up to 100,000 very tidily (previous problems aside) but does not suggest any way to extend from there on. (The obvious way to do it is just to start over again, with an ‘a’ digit come just before a ‘u’ one telling us that ths addition has taken place. The similar treatment of decimals is brilliant.)
What is the ‘e’ before the digits for? Just to warn that these are numbers?
I really like the compactness and clarity of this system and wish I could think of a dodge around the phonological issue, but in the dozen years or so since something like this first came up, no one has managed a workable suggestion (even noting that the forbidden syllables only need be absent in certain positions doesn’t help, since as digits, they have to occur in those positions, too.)
Here is a germ, however. Treat each digit as a. CVCV pattern with the same C (the digit) and the Vs being ‘a’ and ‘e’, in a fixed code to cover the cases through E4. This unfortunately doubles the length of a number. But we actually only need to do this for four numbers, ‘ji, wo, wu, ti’. The trick now is to get a CVCV pattern, especially a VV pattern, that does not occur. For a single iteration of the system, ‘ae’ satisfies the condition. But, of course, no pattern will work for an iterated system (above E5) unless we mark the beginning of iterations and that turns out to be hard, but probably not insurmountable.


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