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la phrases - Page 3 - Toki Pona Forums

la phrases

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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Re: la phrases

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:53 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: la phrases

Postby jan_Lope » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:53 am

pona!
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.

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Re: la phrases

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:30 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: la phrases

Postby jan Alanto » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:28 pm


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Re: la phrases

Postby jan Alanto » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:37 pm


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Re: la phrases

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:55 am

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: la phrases

Postby jan_Lope » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:57 am

jan Alanto o, toki!

Many thanks for your comments.

Sonja wrote that adjectives can modify verbs (pu page 28). I can't agree with that. Adverbs can modify verbs. As I wrote I try to use general grammar terms. jan Pije used the term adverb too.

The translation of the sentence "ona li mama ala mama?" is wrong in pu page 32, because "mama" is a verb here. Sonja wrote very clearly that before and after "ala" has to be a verb. The translation is "Does she mother (somebody)? Does she wet-nurse (somebody)?". Sonja confirmed this error to me via email. So "tan is a verb here also: "sina tan ala tan ma Tosi?" (pu page 64).

As I wrote in my lessons after "li" can be a verb, a noun and an adjective. Only for a better understanding I use the term "missing be".
OK, after "li" is a prepositional object possible because the "missing be". So a preposition can be after "li". I 'll change my lessons and parser in this way next.


I think the general difference in our views is you think that some word type can be a little like other word types. But how many percent is this word a preposition and how many percent is this word a verb for example?
For me a word can only be 100% one word type. This word type is only depends on the its position in the sentence. This point of view is much clearer and simpler than your complicated constructions of "depends on the postion and being something other depends on the word".
What is with the words with several word types in the pu word list? For example "sona": How many percent is it a verb and how many percent is it a preverb if you use "sona" as a noun?
For example the sentence "mi moku e moku." In your view both "moku" are verbs (more or less??), because "moku" is in pu's word list a verb. This is very strange for me.
You better get rid of that superfluous ballast. It only brings new contradictions. "Simplify your thoughts. Less is more." (pu page 9). Or with other words: Keep it as simple as possible.

Maybe "pu" is a little vague sometimes. Other lessons are clearer in some points. In my point of view jan Pije's lesons are far away from your point of view: http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/okamasona6.php : For example "lon can be used as both a verb and a preposition (and so can tawa and kepeken, as you'll learn below)."

Please see other lessons too:
- http://www.albanocruz.com/ext/tokipona/ ... kipona.pdf
- https://ru.wikibooks.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0 ... 0%B8%D0%B5
- http://tokipona.info/Vortaro

"A noun is a word for a person, place or thing" (pu page 17). A preposition can't be this. "A verb is a word that express an action being done to a noun" (pu page 25). A preposition can't be this.

I agree with Sonja: "Prepositions can be used at the end of a sentence" (pu page 34). But "la" phrases can be used at the begin of a sentence.

Please let me now what you think about this.
pona!
jan Lope
https://jan-lope.github.io
(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

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Re: la phrases

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:28 am

This seems to be mainly terminological: POS terminology is used in at least three ways in much tp discussion and Lope wants to restrict it to just of these -- the role a word is playing in place. Even this may not be a clear as might be, since he allows that, at least in the "verb slot" (at the beginning of a predicate, immediately. after 'li' or a modal), virtually any role is possible, without further indication (except the not very useful invisible "be'). This is a reasonable position to take. The main virtues of the dictionary POS is to provide a clue about role in obscure cases and to explain (somewhat) the meaning of a word when not in its home category.
All that really remains as a problem here is whether prepositions can occur at the beginning of 'la' phrases (the original issue, then, despite many detours. Lope takes a position (for which I can find no justification in. pu or Pije or logic) that only nouns can start sentences, even those beginning with 'la' phrases.m Happily, this does not exclude any 'la' phrases we might want, since any string of two or more words (excluding particles) can be viewed as a noun with modifiers. It makes working out what such 'la' phrases mean a little harder (though it usually comes out about right), but doesn't otherwise mess up the grammar. I suspect it also stifles creativity, but that is a different concern, not for this thread.

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Re: la phrases

Postby jan Alanto » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:41 pm

jan Lope o, toki! toki sina ni li pona mute tawa mi. mi kama sona mute tan toki ni. mi wile e ni: sina kin li kama sona.

What was the error Sonja confirmed? What about the sentence "ilo moku li lili ala lili." translated as "Is the spoon small?" shouldn't that mean "Does the spoon reduces (something)?"? Was that another error? So we put "tan" here, it is a verb, but it retains the structure of a preposition (prep + noun) instead of having one of a verb (verb + e + noun)? If that is the case I guess you call it a verb in respect to its position but is it a preposition in respect to its meaning and the way the words following it relate to it (tan ma Tosi = from Germany). I'd say "verb" in this context is just a title indicating the position of the word, not related at all to its meaning. In the way I speak toki pona (I'm not a pu-taso user, unlike Tepan), "mi tan ala tan e nasin toki ni?" is a correct application of "tan" as a verb. It means "Did I give origin to that way of speaking?"

Some words can be of different types in the same sentence "jan li moku" means "people eat" and "people are food" and in "mi pana e sitelen tawa sina" "tawa" can be an adjective or a preposition. The problem with prepositions is that they have a unique construction form and other words can't become prepositions. So why should I abandon their usual reading just because they were dislodged to the beginning of a sentence in favor of a confuse structure with a complex noun phrase? That's strange for me, using a word the same way it is used normally is not.

In "mi moku e moku." the second moku is a noun, because its position (after 'e') obliges it to become something else. "la", on the other side, doesn't oblige any word to become anything. There isn't any guide like "noun ... + la" in the Book. We read verbs and adjectives as nouns in that position because we can't make sense of them in English without making this transformation. English has no "la" (does any language besides toki pona have?). But we can make sense of prepositions in that position in our native languages. It's just another way of ordering the sentence. It can be used to apply a preposition to various verb phrases instead of repeating it every time, it can serve for rhyming and metric. It's another option, just as "X la" is another way of saying "lon X". If it was the case that this is complex, I'm sure Sonja wouldn't confirm she uses prepositions before "la". If it was the case that "less is more" should apply here, then even "X la" = "lon X" could be deprecated, because it is just superfluous. Why learning two options when we have only one after all? Leave "la" for conditionals only!

Other lessons may be clearer in some points, but do they really strictly follow the Book? I don't and you admittedly don't either. Besides divergent terminology, you also use structures of the type "mi/sina(/o?) X li Y" meaning "I X and Y" while Sonja uses "mi X. mi Y." You use "poka" as a preposition meaning "with" (different from "at the side of", "near" = "lon poka pi"). Enjoy freedom! When I was trying to speak nasty long complex sentences I heard your advice. But moderately, we can have some freedom with toki pona. Should we forget Pije's lessons because he speaks differently sometimes? Even 76 Lessons agree in some un-pu usages. So are Kipo's lessons. Every toki pona teacher has divergences on some points. but if it's still good and simple why prohibit anything from those sources?

At last I want to ask you this: what is a preposition? A preposition can't be a noun, but can a noun (tan seme la sina pali?) be a preposition? A preposition can't be a verb, but can a verb be a preposition (sina tan ala tan ma Tosi?)? I also agree with Sonja: when asked if she uses prepositions before "la" she answered yes.

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Re: la phrases

Postby jan_Lope » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:39 am

pona!
jan Lope
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(Lessons and the Toki Pona Parser - A tool for spelling, grammar check and ambiguity check of Toki Pona)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of permanent spamming.


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