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Re: la phrases

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:50 pm
by janKipo
Of course, if you squint hard enough, Lope's rule, like the one about 'pi' only introducing a noun + adjective, can be made to work more or less well, as you show. It takes extra work and opens many possibilities for errors, but it does work after a fashion (wood-fired boilers can drive a car, after all).
Don't be too firm about this however or you, too, will end up a sock puppet.

Re: la phrases

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:14 pm
by jan Alanto
Sorry, I'm too stubborn to want to put an end to this discussion without a winner. And it seems he thinks the same way. I don't think he is an incorruptible stubborn, that can't argument with reason, just imposing his absurdly rigid rules. I'm trying to use his main weapon against our innovations of toki pona, the official book, to reach either of two scenarios: he admits we have at least some freedom of deviation from the official rules or he admits his way of seeing toki pona grammar has some mistakes to be corrected thus retriving the right to critique our deviations. I lose if he proves his point of view follows pu as strictly as he demands ours to do. Of course I will surrender if we end up in a loop of circular arguments (which seems to be already happening). I'm squinting just as I feel "squinted" by the restrictions upon grammatical rules I always took for granted. Like you said, this is a backwards discussion, something resolved a long time ago he still didn't got into. If I ever become a sockpuppet I can just go away from these forums. There's so much of a toki pona community out of here.

Re: la phrases

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:26 am
by janTepanNetaPelin
Yesterday I was asking this on the Toki Pona Facebook page:

toki! I remember Sonja answering in a FB group (this one, I presume) that she uses la-phrases starting with a preposition, e.g. "tan seme la". Can someone confirm (and perhaps provide a link to that post), please?


Sonja replied:

Yes, I do.


Source:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sitelen/permalink/1493038230750557/?comment_id=1493772004010513

drops mic

mi tawa.

Re: la phrases

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:56 am
by janKipo
Unfortunately, the cited entry seems to have vanished ("taken down or cannot be loaded"). Still, the general point clearly holds; the plethora of 'tan ni la' settles the issue (except, of course, that by squinting real hard you can make this into a noun+adj construction that, in context, means pretty much the same thing).

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:03 am
by jan_Lope
jan Alanto o, toki!

Unfortunately, Sonja did not create very exactly the word list at the end of the official Toki Pona book. For example she lists "tan" as preposition only but she use it as verb also: "sina tan ala tan ma Tosi?" (pu page 64).
The same with "kepeken". She use it often as verb: "jan pali li kepeken ilo." (pu page 64, btw: kepeken can a noun here also) "o kepeken ala ilo ike." (pu page 65, btw: kepeken can a noun here also).

Other word lists are better, for example http://tokipona.net/tp/ClassicWordList.aspx
"tan" is list here as noun also.

In this amount I have explained that the first slot in a "la" phrase is mostly for a noun or pronoun: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2659#p15705
With this knowledge you can analyze your sentence as follows:

tan jan seme la sina pu? - noun adjective seme as adjective la ...
(Which is the human cause ...?)

OK, you think "tan" can be a preposition here also. But how can we distinguish whether it is a noun or preposition? I can't see a solution. The make it clear is the best to put the preposition on the right place in the verb phrase at the end of the sentence.


Consider another example:

mi moku e moku, kepeken ilo moku li moku e telo, kepeken poki.

This sentence has two verb phrases with a prepositional object each: "moku e moku, kepeken ilo moku" and "moku e telo, kepeken poki" ("kepeken" is a preposition in each verb phrases).
If you put one of this prepositional object in a "la" phrase you will break up the corresponding verb phrase. You can't see to wich verb phrase is the prepostion connected to.


This example is little different:

mi moku e moku, kepeken ilo moku li moku e telo, kepeken poki, lon tenpo ni.

The prepositional object "lon tenpo ni" is part of the second verb phrase. But If you mean "tenpo ni" for both verb phrase you have to put it in a "la" phrase:

tenpo ni la mi moku e moku, kepeken ilo moku li moku e telo, kepeken poki.
O sorry: "tenpo" is a noun here ;-)



In your example "kepeken ilo sitelen la jan li ken sitelen lon lipu." is "kepeken" possible as noun (use, usage).

In the example "kulupu pali li kepeken seme?" "kepeken" can be a verb or a noun.

Btw: After a verb can't be an adjectives. To modify verbs you use adverbs.

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:02 am
by janTepanNetaPelin
Hey Lope,

I agree that "tan jan seme la" could be read as "at which human cause"? (Here's another convoluted way to express "because of whom" for you: "jan tan seme la". Read it as "at which causing human". I could go on.)

If you use "tan" as a noun, a "pi" is necessary: "tan pi jan seme la" - "at whose cause"? Compare "tan jan pona la" (which you would read as "at good human cause" — not what you want to say, but it's not a dare!) with "tan pi jan pona la", which everyone would read as "at the cause of a friend". So, as a side-effect, the "pi" makes your intention clearer and wouldn't confuse those Tokiponans that use prepositions at the beginning of a la-sentence (like Sonja does).

The same structure can be used with "lon", of course, and why have two different structures in order to express the same concept? If you say "tan pi jan seme la" you can say "lon tan pi jan seme" (instead of "tan jan seme"). In fact, I recommend you to use it in order to keep your usage consistent/simple/easier to follow.

* sina pu lon tan pi jan seme? = tan pi jan seme la sina pu?
* sina pu lon tan pi jan pona. = tan pi jan pona la sina pu.

Good luck with that!

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:49 am
by jan_Lope
jan TepanNetaPelin o, toki!

I agree with you that "pi" can help to generally mark a noun. So you can it here too. But a "pi" phrase is not necessary here.

pona!

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:24 am
by janTepanNetaPelin
jan_Lope wrote:But a "pi" phrase is not necessary here.
pona!


So, you're OK with:
* "tan jan pona la" = "at good human cause" (with "tan" as a noun, but without "pi")

But you are not OK with:
* "tan jan pona la" = "because of a friend" (with "tan" as a preposition)

But you're OK with:
"at good human cause" = "because of a friend"

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:33 am
by janTepanNetaPelin
Besides, any remarks on the fact that Sonja uses prepositions at the beginning of la-phrases?

Re: la phrases

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:06 am
by jan_Lope
janTepanNetaPelin wrote:But you're OK with:
"at good human cause" = "because of a friend"


I'm not OK with this. Why do you think that?