jan Ense en jan Kete

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
jan Jon
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:51 pm

jan Ense en jan Kete

Postby jan Jon » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:19 pm

This is my try on 'Hänsel und Gretel'. It's quite long, so I'm sure there are things to improve. But let's see. I'm looking forward to your suggestions.

jan Ense en jan Kete

jan mije pi mani lili li lon poka ma pi kasi suli. ona li jo e meli e jan lili tu. nimi pi mije lili li 'Ense'. nimi pi meli lili li 'Kete'. jan meli li mama ala pi jan lili.

tenpo la, ona li jo ala e moku. meli li toki e ni: "mije o kute. mi mute li jo ala e moku li ken ala pana e moku tawa jan lili. tenpo suno kama la, sina en jan lili li tawa ma pi kasi suli. sina taso li tawa tomo. jan lili li awen lon ma pi kasi suli." "meli o. mi ken ala. soweli li moku e jan lili olin mi la, mi ike pilin mute." taso meli li toki: "sina pali ala e ni la, mi ale li kama moli."

jan lili li kute e ni. jan Kete li pana e telo oko mute. taso jan Ense li toki: "ale li kama pona." ona li tawa poka tomo. mun li pana e suno walo. jan Ense li lukin e kiwen lili walo li kama jo e kiwen lili walo mute.

tenpo suno kama la, meli li pana e pan tawa jan lili. jan ale li tawa ma pi kasi suli. jan Ense li weka anpa e kiwen lili walo lon nasin. suno li lon sewi la, jan meli li toki tawa jan lili: "sina mute o awen lon ni. mi mute li wile kama jo e kasi seli." jan suli li tawa weka.

jan lili li awen li moku e pan li awen. suno li pini. taso mama mije en jan meli li kama ala. tenpo pimeja la, jan Kete li pana e telo oko. jan Ense li toki: "o awen. mun li tawa sewi la, ale li kama pona." mun li tawa sewi li pana e suno walo. jan lili li ken lukin e kiwen lili walo li tawa tomo kepeken nasin pi kiwen lili walo. ona li kama lon tomo la, mama mije li pona pilin mute. jan meli li ike pilin. taso ona li toki ala e ni.

tenpo lili la, moku li lon ala kin. jan meli li toki tawa mama mije: "tenpo nanpa wan la, jan lili li ken kama lon tomo. taso tenpo sin la, mi wile tawa mute lon insa ma pi kasi suli. ona li ken ala kama lon tomo."

jan lili li kute e ni. jan Ense li wile kin jo e kiwen lili walo. taso tenpo ni la, ona li ken ala open e lupa tomo. jan meli li pini wawa e lupa.

sin la, ona li pana e pan tawa jan lili. jan ale li tawa ma pi kasi suli. jan Ense li jo ala e kiwen li weka anpa e wan lili pi pan ona. lon insa ma pi kasi suli la, mama li tawa weka.

jan lili li awen. jan ala li kama. jan Ense li toki: "o awen. mun li tawa sewi la, mi ken lukin e wan pan lili li ken tawa tomo." mun li tawa sewi. taso jan lili li ken ala lukin e wan pan lili. waso li moku e pan. jan lili li tawa. taso ona li weka e nasin. ona li wile moku li jo ala e moku. ona li kama ala weka ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo suno la, ona li kama lon tomo nasa pi pan en suwi. jan Ense li toki e ni: "mi mute o awen lon ni. o moku." ona li moku e suwi tan tomo.

a! ona li kute e kalama nasa. kalama nasa li toki e ni: "oko mi o oko! jan seme kin li moku?" jan lili li toki: "mi kon. mi kon. kon sewi li lon."

jan meli lili nasa li kama tan tomo. tenpo mute la, ona li sike e suno. "jan lili olin o! sina kama tan lon seme? o kama lon insa tomo! sina pona lon ni." ona li lawa e jan lili lon insa tomo. moku mute li lon. jan lili li moku li lape lon supa lape pona. ona li pilin e ni: mi mute li lon sewi.

jan meli lili nasa li jan wawa ike li moku e jan lili. jan Ense en jan Kete li kama la, ona li pona pilin mute. ona li tawa e jan Ense lape tawa tomo soweli lili. jan Ense li pini lape la, ona li ken ala tawa weka.

jan ike li toki tawa jan Kete: "meli lili o kama jo e telo tan telo tawa! o seli e moku! jan sama sina li lon tomo soweli li ken ala tawa weka. mi wile suli e ona li wile moku e ona." jan Kete li pana e telo oko. taso ona li pali e ni.

tenpo suno mute la, ona li seli e moku tawa jan Ense. jan ike li toki tawa jan Ense: "o lukin e palisa luka sina tawa mi!" taso jan Ense li lukin e palisa kasi lili tawa jan ike. tan ni la, jan ike li pilin e ni: jan Ense li suli ala.

tenpo mun la, jan ike li toki tawa jan Kete: "o seli e telo! jan Ense li suli ala. taso mi wile kin moku e ona. jan Kete o lukin e poki seli! oko mi li lukin pona ala. mi wile sona e ni: ko pan li pona anu seme?" taso jan ike li wile seli e jan Kete li wile moku e jan lili tu.

jan Kete li toki: "mi sona ala. mi ken lukin e poki seli kepeken nasin seme? o pana e sona tawa mi!" jan ike li tawa sinpin pi poki seli. taso tenpo ni la, jan Kete li tawa wawa e ona tawa insa pi poki seli li pini wawa e lupa. jan ike li ken ala weka tan poki seli li kalama mute mute li kama moli.

jan Kete li open e lupa pi tomo soweli pi jan Ense. jan lili li pona pilin mute. mani mute li lon tomo pi jan ike. ona li kama jo e mani mute li tawa tomo ona.

ona li kama lon tomo la, mama mije li pona pilin mute. ona li jan pi mani mute. taso tenpo pini la, jan meli li moli.

janKipo
Posts: 2825
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ense en jan Kete

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:57 pm

I've made a few changes for grammar and a couple for sense (there are still a lot of problems with 'tempo... la' and I am trying for some consistency.). The remaining question is about "show x to y" which, I know, the old word list gives as 'lukin e x tawa y', but which doesn't make any sense in that form. The fussbudgety version is 'kama e ni: y li lukin e x', but that is longwinded. I don't know a good solution, so I am leaving the old list but with a question mark.

jan mije pi mani lili li lon poka ma pi kasi suli. ona li jo e meli e jan lili tu. nimi pi mije lili li 'Ense'. nimi pi meli lili li 'Kete'. jan meli li mama ala pi jan lili.

tenpo la, ona li jo ala e moku. meli li toki e ni: "mije o kute. mi mute li jo ala e moku li ken ala pana e moku tawa jan lili. tenpo suno kama la, sina en jan lili li tawa ma pi kasi suli. sina taso li tawa [sin?/kama lon] tomo. jan lili li awen lon ma pi kasi suli." "meli o. mi ken ala. soweli li moku e jan lili olin mi la, mi ike pilin mute." taso meli li toki: "sina pali ala e ni la, mi ale li kama moli."

jan lili li kute e ni. jan Kete li pana e telo oko mute. taso jan Ense li toki: "ale li kama pona." ona li tawa poka tomo. mun li pana e suno walo. jan Ense li lukin e kiwen lili walo li kama jo e kiwen lili walo mute.

tenpo suno kama la, meli li pana e pan tawa jan lili. jan ale li tawa ma pi kasi suli. jan Ense li weka anpa e kiwen lili walo lon nasin. suno li lon sewi la, jan meli li toki tawa jan lili: "sina tu o awen lon ni. mi mute li wile kama jo e kasi seli." jan suli li tawa weka.

jan lili li awen li moku e pan li awen. suno li pini. taso mama mije en jan meli li kama ala. tenpo pimeja la, jan Kete li pana e telo oko. jan Ense li toki: "o awen. mun li tawa sewi la, ale li kama pona." mun li tawa sewi li pana e suno walo. jan lili li ken lukin e kiwen lili walo li tawa tomo kepeken nasin pi kiwen lili walo. ona li kama lon tomo la, mama mije li pona pilin mute. jan meli li ike pilin. taso ona li toki ala e ni.

tenpo lili la, moku li lon ala kin. jan meli li toki tawa mama mije: "tenpo nanpa wan la, jan lili li ken kama lon tomo. taso tenpo sin la, mi wile tawa mute lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli. ona li ken ala kama lon tomo."

jan lili li kute e ni. jan Ense li wile kin jo e kiwen lili walo. taso tenpo ni la, ona li ken ala open e lupa tomo. jan meli li pini wawa e lupa.

sin la, ona li pana e pan tawa jan lili. jan ale li tawa ma pi kasi suli. jan Ense li jo ala e kiwen li weka anpa e wan lili pi pan ona. lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli la, mama li tawa weka.

jan lili li awen. jan ala li kama. jan Ense li toki: "o awen. mun li tawa sewi la, mi ken lukin e wan pan lili li ken tawa tomo." mun li tawa sewi. taso jan lili li ken ala lukin e wan pan lili. waso li moku e pan. jan lili li tawa. taso ona li weka e nasin. ona li wile moku li jo ala e moku. ona li kama ala weka tan ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo suno la, ona li kama lon tomo nasa pi pan en suwi. jan Ense li toki e ni: "mi tu o awen lon ni. o moku." ona li moku e suwi tan tomo.

a! ona li kute e kalama nasa. kalama nasa li toki e ni: "oko mi o oko! jan seme kin li moku?" jan lili li toki: "mi kon. mi kon. kon sewi li lon."

jan meli lili nasa li kama tan tomo. tenpo mute la, ona li sike e suno. "jan lili olin o! sina kama tan lon seme? o kama lon insa tomo! sina pona lon ni." ona li lawa e jan lili tawa insa tomo. moku mute li lon. jan lili li moku li lape lon supa lape pona. ona li pilin e ni: “mi tu li lon sewi.”

jan meli lili nasa li jan wawa ike li moku e jan lili. jan Ense en jan Kete li kama la, ona li pona pilin mute. ona li tawa e jan Ense lape tawa tomo soweli lili. jan Ense li pini lape la, ona li ken ala tawa weka.

jan ike li toki tawa jan Kete: "meli lili o kama jo e telo tan telo tawa! o seli e moku! jan sama sina li lon tomo soweli li ken ala tawa weka. mi wile suli e ona li wile moku e ona." jan Kete li pana e telo oko. taso ona li pali e ni.

tenpo suno mute la, ona li seli e moku tawa jan Ense. jan ike li toki tawa jan Ense: "o lukin (?) e palisa luka sina tawa mi!" taso jan Ense li lukin e palisa kasi lili tawa jan ike. tan ni la, jan ike li pilin e ni: jan Ense li suli ala.

tenpo mun li pini la, jan ike li toki tawa jan Kete: "o seli e telo! jan Ense li suli ala. taso mi wile kin moku e ona. jan Kete o lukin e poki seli! oko mi li lukin pona ala. mi wile sona e ni: ko pan li pona anu seme?" taso jan ike li wile seli e jan Kete li wile moku e jan lili tu.

jan Kete li toki: "mi sona ala. mi ken lukin e poki seli kepeken nasin seme? o pana e sona tawa mi!" jan ike li tawa sinpin pi poki seli. taso tenpo ni la jan Kete li tawa wawa e ona tawa insa pi poki seli li pini wawa e lupa. jan ike li ken ala weka tan poki seli li kalama mute mute li kama moli.

jan Kete li open e lupa pi tomo soweli pi jan Ense. jan lili li pona pilin mute. mani mute li lon tomo pi jan ike. ona li kama jo e mani mute li tawa tomo ona.

ona li kama lon tomo la, mama mije li pona pilin mute. ona li jan pi mani mute. taso tenpo pini la, jan meli li moli.

jan Jon
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: jan Ense en jan Kete

Postby jan Jon » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:50 pm

Thanks a lot for looking through the whole thing. I'm learning a lot here.

I just wanted to list your main changes for my reference, and to see if I understand them correctly:
  1. 'lon insa ma pi kasi suli' -> 'lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli'
    I understand there has been quite some discussion about this one already. I can see the point of using two pi here and I think I even had this version first, before remembering the famous two-words-after-a-pi-rule. 'insa pi ma pi kasi suli' is fine for me. But is there really another meaning of 'lon insa ma pi kasi suli' other than the one intended here?
  2. 'mi/sina mute' -> 'mi/sina tu' for 'we' or 'you' addressing the two children. I do like that one.
About the problem with "show". Has something analogous to 'pane e sona' been discussed already?
In this case: 'o pana e lukin pi palisa luka sina (tawa mi)!'

I'd love to hear more detail about the 'tenpo ... la' problems, because that seems to be one of the harder things to master in tp.

janKipo
Posts: 2825
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: jan Ense en jan Kete

Postby janKipo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:27 pm

1. "in the earth interior of a tree" = 'lon insa ma pi kasi suli'. Not sure what it means, but that is what the tp says. The "two-word rule" includes 'pi' and what follows it as the second word(s).
2. Adding 'mute' is just automatic "plural", but in a lot of cases (couples, hero & side-kick, sibs, etc.) the 'tu' is both more accurate and more appropriate.

Oh, I hadn't thought of 'pana e lukin' , "give a view" for "show. I like it a lot; it is a good size and makes sense.

I keep meaning to gather all the temporal stuff together again (there are notes in various Forums, various places in Facebook, and on tpnimi.blogspot.com). Right now, as I am going through the corpus, checking grammar and doing translations, I am building a list of cases and what I take them to mean (a lot of. cases where I am unsure in just the sort of way this. case suggested). Of course, the whole 'la' complex needs some sorting out, but the temporals seem to be the crucial ones.


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