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meli lili pi len loje - Page 3 - Toki Pona Forums

meli lili pi len loje

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:38 pm

I theoretically like the commas before final PP, but in practice they break my reading rhythm. Most other commas are even more annoying. But, as you say, it is hard pleasing everyone and Lope and I just disagree about a lot of things. I do take a more lenient view on a lot of things, however.

lon insa pi tomo PI mama mama sina la o toki e NIMI «toki!» tawa ona.” (original 'pi', posessive. names need supporting nouns)

kalama ni, li pona mute. A totally pointless and disturbing comma. What can it possibly do?

meli lili li kama, lon insa tomo li pilin nasa li toki: Hard to tell, but this at least is not a terminal PP but the predicate attached to the modal 'kama', so the usual argument for commas doesn't apply.

taso, jan ala li toki tawa ona. another pointless and annoying comma (I don't like commas with 'la' either' but they do have some small justification. This doesn't.)

kepeken ni la mi ken luka PONA e sina”. for consistency

kama, lon supa lape. modal+verb again. and several other places later on

mama mama meli KIN li kama [kin].

mi awen, lon nasin pi ma kasi ni. modal+verb again

pake (open ala) 'pake' is stronger: "bar the door" not just "don't open it", maybe 'pini ali' "totally close"

Really desperate quibbles now. It works as it stands. Very nice job.

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jan Same
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:52 am

Thank you for the corrections once again :)
( for “lon insa pi tomo PI mama mama sina”, I tried not repeating “pi”.
So I used “ona” instead, but I still left “mama mama sina” in brackets if people get lost reading)


Here's the new text:
------------------

tenpo la meli lili li lon.

meli lili ni li pona, tawa jan ali.
nanpa lawa la meli lili li pona mute, tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli ona li mama meli pi mama ona.
mama mama meli ona li pana e ali, tawa ona.

tenpo pini la mama mama meli li pana e len loje, tawa meli lili ona.
meli lili li kepeken len ni la ona li kama pona lukin.
tenpo ni la meli lili li wile ala e len sin.
ona li wile e len loje ni taso.
tenpo kama ali la ona li jo e nimi: “meli lili pi len loje”.

sike suno ante la mama meli pi meli lili li toki e ni:
“jan lili mi o kama! ni li moku.
o pana e moku ni, tawa mama mama meli sina.
ona li pilin ike. sina pana e moku ni la ona li kama pilin pona.
o tawa!
taso, o tawa wawa ala tan ni: moku li anpa la mama mama meli sina li jo ala e moku.
mi wile e ni: sina tawa, kepeken tenpo mute.
lon insa pi tomo ona la (tomo pi mama mama sina) o toki e nimi «toki!» tawa ona.”

meli lili li toki: “tenpo kama la mi tawa pona”.

mama mama meli pi meli lili li lon ma pi kasi suli.
meli lili li lon open pi ma kasi ni.
tenpo ni la soweli li kama.
meli lili li sona ala e ni: ona li ike mute.
meli lili li monsuta ala tan ni.

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje o, toki!”

- “soweli o, ni li pona tawa mi”

- “sina li lon insa pi ma kasi ni tan seme?”

- “mi tawa mama mama meli mi”

- “lon insa pi len sina li jo e seme ?”

- “ijo moku. tenpo suno pini la mi mute li pali e moku suwi.
mi mute li pali e moku tan ni: mama mama meli mi li pilin ike.”

- “mama mama meli sina li lon seme?”

- “jan ali li sona e ni.
mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma kasi ni.
tomo ona li lon poka pi kasi suli. kasi suli ni li jo e kili pimeja mute.”

soweli ike li pilin e ni:
“meli lili li pona lukin, ona li moku pi pona mute, tawa mi.
mama mama meli ona li moku pi pona lili, tawa mi.
mi wile e ni: mi moku e meli lili en mama mama meli.”

soweli en meli li tawa. soweli li tawa, lon poka meli lili.
soweli li toki:
“o lukin! kasi kule li pona lukin, lon ma pi kasi suli ni.
ken la sina ken lukin.
a! sina o kute e kalama musi waso. kalama ni li pona mute.
sina tawa wawa lon nasin ni. ken la sina ken tawa, kepeken tenpo mute.
ken la sina ken weka, tan nasin. o weka lon ma pi kasi suli. o lukin e waso en kasi.
mi pilin e ni: ni li kama pona mute, tawa sina.”

meli lili pi len loje li lawa e oko ona.
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma kasi ni.
meli lili li toki:
“ken la mi ken pana e kasi kule, tawa mama mama meli mi.
ken la ona li pilin e ni: «kasi kule li pona tawa mi!»,
mi jo e tenpo mute, mi ken kepeken tenpo mute.”

meli lili pi len loje li weka, tan nasin. ona li tawa, lon ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo sama la soweli ike li tawa wawa, kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li tawa tomo pi mama mama meli.
ona li kalama e supa lupa tomo pi mama mama meli.

mama mama meli li toki: “jan seme li lon?”

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje li lon, mi jo e moku suwi e moku telo! o open e lupa!”

mama mama meli li toki: “a! sina ken open e lupa. mi wawa ala, mi ken ala open e lupa.”

soweli li open e lupa li kama lon insa. soweli li toki ala li tawa supa lape pi mama mama meli.
ona li moku e ali pi mama mama meli.
tenpo kama la soweli ike li len e sama, kepeken len pi mama mama meli li kama lon insa pi supa lape.

tenpo sama la meli lili li pilin e ni:
“a ike! mi kepeken tenpo pi mute mute a! tenpo ni la mi jo e tenpo ala!
mi tawa tomo mama mama mi!”

----

meli lili li kama lon sinpin pi tomo mama mama meli ona.
tenpo ni la lupa li open. tan ni la oko pi meli lili li open mute.
meli lili li kama lon insa tomo li pilin nasa li toki:
“tenpo ante la lon poka pi mama mama mi la mi pilin pona. taso, tenpo ni la mi pilin nasa mute.”
meli lili li toki: “toki!”.
taso jan ala li toki tawa ona.

tan ni la meli lili li tawa supa lape.
lon ni la mama mama meli pi meli lili li lape.
lawa ona li lon insa pi selo len. (selo len li selo pi supa lape).
ona li nasa lukin mute.

meli lili li toki: “a! mama mama o! sina li jo e nena kute pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken kute pona e sina.”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e oko pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken lukin pona e sina.”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e luka pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken luka pona e sina”

meli lili li toki: “a! taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e uta pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “a! kepeken ni la mi ken moku pona e sina!”

soweli li toki e ni la ona li kama wawa, tan supa lape. ona li moku e meli lili ali.

tenpo moku pini la ona li kama lon supa lape li lape. soweli li lape la ona li kalama lape mute.

tenpo sama la jan alasa li tawa, lon poka tomo.
jan alasa li pilin e ni: “meli pi tomo ni li kalama mute. ken la sina wile e ijo”.
jan alasa li kama lon insa tomo. ona li kama lukin e soweli lape.

jan alasa li toki: “a! soweli ike o! sina li lon ni tan seme a?! tenpo suli la mi wile moli e sina!”
jan alasa li wile kepeken ilo moli, tawa soweli. taso, ona li kama pilin e ni: ken la mama mama meli li lon insa pi soweli ike. ken la tenpo ni la mama mama li moli ala.
tan ni la ona li kepeken ala e ilo moli. ona li kepeken ilo kipisi.
ona li kipisi e sijelo pi soweli lape.

insa pi soweli ike li kama tu la jan alasa li lukin e meli lili pi len loje.
ona li kama, tan sijelo pi soweli ike.
meli lili li toki: “a! mi monsuta mute! lon insa soweli li pimeja mute!”
mama mama meli kin li kama.
tenpo kama la meli lili li alasa e kiwen mute. ona li pana e kiwen lon insa pi soweli ike.
soweli ike li kama lape ala la ona li wile tawa wawa. taso lon insa pi soweli ike li jo e kiwen mute.
tan ni la ona li ken ala tawa li kama moli.

soweli li moli la jan tu wan li kama pilin pona.

jan alasa li kipisi li kama jo e selo soweli. jan alasa li tawa tomo ona.
mama mama li moku e moku suwi e telo pi meli lili.
meli lili pi len loje li pilin e ni:
“tenpo kama ali la mi awen lon nasin pi ma kasi ni.
tenpo kama ali la mi weka ala, tan nasin.
mama mi li toki e lawa la mi weka ala lon ma pi kasi suli.”

tenpo ante la meli lili li pana kin e moku, tawa mama mama sina.
ona li tawa lon nasin sama. soweli ike ante kin li lon nasin ni.
soweli li wile ike. taso, meli lili pi len loje li sona pona.
meli lili li tawa wawa li lukin ala e soweli ike.

lon tomo pi mama mama sina la meli lili li toki e ijo pi soweli ike sin, tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli li toki: “a, o pake (pini ali) e supa lupa pi tomo mi. mi wile ala e ni: soweli ike li kama lon insa.”
tenpo kama la soweli li kalama e supa lupa tomo pi mama mama meli.
soweli ike li toki: “o open! mi meli lili pi len loje! mi pana e moku suwi!
taso meli lili en mama mama meli li toki ala.
tan ni la soweli li sike e tomo li kama lon lawa tomo.

ona li wile awen e tenpo pimeja.
ona li wile e ni: lon tenpo pimeja la meli lili li kama tan tomo la soweli li moku e ona.
taso, mama mama meli li sona e ni.

lon sinpin tomo la lupa kiwen suli li lon.
mama mama meli li toki:
“tenpo suno pini la mi pali e moku, kepeken telo seli.
meli lili o pana e telo seli pi moku mi, kepeken poki lili.
o pana e telo seli ni lon insa pi lupa kiwen suli.”

meli lili pi len loje li pana e telo seli, tawa lupa kiwen suli.
lupa kiwen suli li kama jo e telo mute.
kon pi telo seli li sama moku pi tenpo suno pini.
soweli ike li pilin e kon.
ona li kama, tawa lupa kiwen suli.
soweli ike li lukin lon insa pi lupa kiwen suli.
lawa pi soweli ike li tawa anpa. taso, noka ona li ken ala awen lon open pi lupa kiwen suli.

soweli ike li tawa anpa wawa li kama lon insa pi telo mute.
soweli ike li moli lon telo.

tan ni la meli lili pi len loje li pilin pona li tawa tomo ona.

tan ni la tenpo ali la ike li kama ala, tawa ona.

janKipo
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:00 pm

o lukin e waso en kasi. 'e kasi', not a mixture

lon insa soweli li pimeja mute. Prob. don't need 'lon', which makes it hard to interpret grammatically.

lon tomo pi mama mama sina. not mine, but hers, 'ona'

lon tenpo pimeja la. don't need 'lon' (gets lost automatically, apparently, when shifted from end of sentence)

Really fussbudgetty. I think you can stop. (The tomo lipu people may have more questions/suggestions, but that is far future -- I'm afraid.)

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jan Same
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:40 pm

Thank you very much for helping me with this project,
here's the final version :
---------

tenpo la meli lili li lon.

meli lili ni li pona, tawa jan ali.
nanpa lawa la meli lili li pona mute, tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli ona li mama meli pi mama ona.
mama mama meli ona li pana e ali, tawa ona.

tenpo pini la mama mama meli li pana e len loje, tawa meli lili ona.
meli lili li kepeken len ni la ona li kama pona lukin.
tenpo ni la meli lili li wile ala e len sin.
ona li wile e len loje ni taso.
tenpo kama ali la ona li jo e nimi: “meli lili pi len loje”.

sike suno ante la mama meli pi meli lili li toki e ni:
“jan lili mi o kama! ni li moku.
o pana e moku ni, tawa mama mama meli sina.
ona li pilin ike. sina pana e moku ni la ona li kama pilin pona.
o tawa!
taso, o tawa wawa ala tan ni: moku li anpa la mama mama meli sina li jo ala e moku.
mi wile e ni: sina tawa, kepeken tenpo mute.
lon insa pi tomo ona la (tomo pi mama mama sina) o toki e nimi «toki!» tawa ona.”

meli lili li toki: “tenpo kama la mi tawa pona”.

mama mama meli pi meli lili li lon ma pi kasi suli.
meli lili li lon open pi ma kasi ni.
tenpo ni la soweli li kama.
meli lili li sona ala e ni: ona li ike mute.
meli lili li monsuta ala tan ni.

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje o, toki!”

- “soweli o, ni li pona tawa mi”

- “sina li lon insa pi ma kasi ni tan seme?”

- “mi tawa mama mama meli mi”

- “lon insa pi len sina li jo e seme ?”

- “ijo moku. tenpo suno pini la mi mute li pali e moku suwi.
mi mute li pali e moku tan ni: mama mama meli mi li pilin ike.”

- “mama mama meli sina li lon seme?”

- “jan ali li sona e ni.
mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma kasi ni.
tomo ona li lon poka pi kasi suli. kasi suli ni li jo e kili pimeja mute.”

soweli ike li pilin e ni:
“meli lili li pona lukin, ona li moku pi pona mute, tawa mi.
mama mama meli ona li moku pi pona lili, tawa mi.
mi wile e ni: mi moku e meli lili en mama mama meli.”

soweli en meli li tawa. soweli li tawa, lon poka meli lili.
soweli li toki:
“o lukin! kasi kule li pona lukin, lon ma pi kasi suli ni.
ken la sina ken lukin.
a! sina o kute e kalama musi waso. kalama ni li pona mute.
sina tawa wawa lon nasin ni. ken la sina ken tawa, kepeken tenpo mute.
ken la sina ken weka, tan nasin. o weka lon ma pi kasi suli. o lukin e waso e kasi.
mi pilin e ni: ni li kama pona mute, tawa sina.”

meli lili pi len loje li lawa e oko ona.
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma kasi ni.
meli lili li toki:
“ken la mi ken pana e kasi kule, tawa mama mama meli mi.
ken la ona li pilin e ni: «kasi kule li pona tawa mi!»,
mi jo e tenpo mute, mi ken kepeken tenpo mute.”

meli lili pi len loje li weka, tan nasin. ona li tawa, lon ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo sama la soweli ike li tawa wawa, kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li tawa tomo pi mama mama meli.
ona li kalama e supa lupa tomo pi mama mama meli.

mama mama meli li toki: “jan seme li lon?”

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje li lon, mi jo e moku suwi e moku telo! o open e lupa!”

mama mama meli li toki: “a! sina ken open e lupa. mi wawa ala, mi ken ala open e lupa.”

soweli li open e lupa li kama lon insa. soweli li toki ala li tawa supa lape pi mama mama meli.
ona li moku e ali pi mama mama meli.
tenpo kama la soweli ike li len e sama, kepeken len pi mama mama meli li kama lon insa pi supa lape.

tenpo sama la meli lili li pilin e ni:
“a ike! mi kepeken tenpo pi mute mute a! tenpo ni la mi jo e tenpo ala!
mi tawa tomo mama mama mi!”

----

meli lili li kama lon sinpin pi tomo mama mama meli ona.
tenpo ni la lupa li open. tan ni la oko pi meli lili li open mute.
meli lili li kama lon insa tomo li pilin nasa li toki:
“tenpo ante la lon poka pi mama mama mi la mi pilin pona. taso, tenpo ni la mi pilin nasa mute.”
meli lili li toki: “toki!”.
taso jan ala li toki tawa ona.

tan ni la meli lili li tawa supa lape.
lon ni la mama mama meli pi meli lili li lape.
lawa ona li lon insa pi selo len. (selo len li selo pi supa lape).
ona li nasa lukin mute.

meli lili li toki: “a! mama mama o! sina li jo e nena kute pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken kute pona e sina.”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e oko pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken lukin pona e sina.”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e luka pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken luka pona e sina”

meli lili li toki: “a! taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e uta pi suli mute!”

ona li toki: “a! kepeken ni la mi ken moku pona e sina!”

soweli li toki e ni la ona li kama wawa, tan supa lape. ona li moku e meli lili ali.

tenpo moku pini la ona li kama lon supa lape li lape. soweli li lape la ona li kalama lape mute.

tenpo sama la jan alasa li tawa, lon poka tomo.
jan alasa li pilin e ni: “meli pi tomo ni li kalama mute. ken la sina wile e ijo”.
jan alasa li kama lon insa tomo. ona li kama lukin e soweli lape.

jan alasa li toki: “a! soweli ike o! sina li lon ni tan seme a?! tenpo suli la mi wile moli e sina!”
jan alasa li wile kepeken ilo moli, tawa soweli. taso, ona li kama pilin e ni: ken la mama mama meli li lon insa pi soweli ike. ken la tenpo ni la mama mama li moli ala.
tan ni la ona li kepeken ala e ilo moli. ona li kepeken ilo kipisi.
ona li kipisi e sijelo pi soweli lape.

insa pi soweli ike li kama tu la jan alasa li lukin e meli lili pi len loje.
ona li kama, tan sijelo pi soweli ike.
meli lili li toki: “a! mi monsuta mute! insa soweli li pimeja mute!”
mama mama meli kin li kama.
tenpo kama la meli lili li alasa e kiwen mute. ona li pana e kiwen lon insa pi soweli ike.
soweli ike li kama lape ala la ona li wile tawa wawa. taso lon insa pi soweli ike li jo e kiwen mute.
tan ni la ona li ken ala tawa li kama moli.

soweli li moli la jan tu wan li kama pilin pona.

jan alasa li kipisi li kama jo e selo soweli. jan alasa li tawa tomo ona.
mama mama li moku e moku suwi e telo pi meli lili.
meli lili pi len loje li pilin e ni:
“tenpo kama ali la mi awen lon nasin pi ma kasi ni.
tenpo kama ali la mi weka ala, tan nasin.
mama mi li toki e lawa la mi weka ala lon ma pi kasi suli.”

tenpo ante la meli lili li pana kin e moku, tawa mama mama sina.
ona li tawa lon nasin sama. soweli ike ante kin li lon nasin ni.
soweli li wile ike. taso, meli lili pi len loje li sona pona.
meli lili li tawa wawa li lukin ala e soweli ike.

lon tomo pi mama mama ona la meli lili li toki e ijo pi soweli ike sin, tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli li toki: “a, o pake (pini ali) e supa lupa pi tomo mi. mi wile ala e ni: soweli ike li kama lon insa.”
tenpo kama la soweli li kalama e supa lupa tomo pi mama mama meli.
soweli ike li toki: “o open! mi meli lili pi len loje! mi pana e moku suwi!
taso meli lili en mama mama meli li toki ala.
tan ni la soweli li sike e tomo li kama lon lawa tomo.

ona li wile awen e tenpo pimeja.
ona li wile e ni: tenpo pimeja la meli lili li kama tan tomo la soweli li moku e ona.
taso, mama mama meli li sona e ni.

lon sinpin tomo la lupa kiwen suli li lon.
mama mama meli li toki:
“tenpo suno pini la mi pali e moku, kepeken telo seli.
meli lili o pana e telo seli pi moku mi, kepeken poki lili.
o pana e telo seli ni lon insa pi lupa kiwen suli.”

meli lili pi len loje li pana e telo seli, tawa lupa kiwen suli.
lupa kiwen suli li kama jo e telo mute.
kon pi telo seli li sama moku pi tenpo suno pini.
soweli ike li pilin e kon.
ona li kama, tawa lupa kiwen suli.
soweli ike li lukin lon insa pi lupa kiwen suli.
lawa pi soweli ike li tawa anpa. taso, noka ona li ken ala awen lon open pi lupa kiwen suli.

soweli ike li tawa anpa wawa li kama lon insa pi telo mute.
soweli ike li moli lon telo.

tan ni la meli lili pi len loje li pilin pona li tawa tomo ona.

tan ni la tenpo ali la ike li kama ala, tawa ona.

--------

I'm now going to create a PDF with a clean page layout.
I'll also make a version in sitelen pona and sitelen sitelen :)

janKipo
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:24 pm

Nice.
In the code versions, do make compact forms for 'mama mama' and ''meli lili pi len loje' and the other expressions that turn up in almost every line.

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jan Same
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:24 am

toki!
I've finished the first PDF of the story. It's the Alphabet version.
You can find it here:

(Edit: I've changed the link, I just corrected a small error)

What do you think? Is it okay?
I just want to check that everything's good before beginning the sitelen pona and sitelen sitelen versions.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:21 pm

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janKipo
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:14 pm

Commas before final PPs have been recommended and used (though sparingly) for several years to break up very common ambiguities at that point. Lope's textbook actually required them at one point (he has done a revision and I don't know how much of that is left). They should be an option, not a rule. Commas before or after 'la' are never required (except for rare cases of ambiguity), but trying to get people to leave them out or at least put them after the 'la' have proved fruitless.

I assume '2017' (however pronounced) is the name of the year. It probably should be in quotes as a non-tp name.
'nanpa lawa' "first", a variant on 'nanpa open' and similar colloquial expressions, cf. 'nanpa pini' for "last".

I don't know the original, though I have it to. hand. This certainly does suggest that LRRH go slowly so as not to spill things. I'm not sure it affects the story much.

'weka lon ma pi kasi suli' "wander in the woods" "is distant (from the path, implicitly) in the woods"

'supa lupa tomo' "house door slab". not what I would have said, but perfectly correct as it stands. Remember modification is the cover-all of connections, so almost anything can be packed in in this way. This is clear in context, but takes a minute to see.

Your remarks about all the stuff about commas and the occasional grammatical slips seem right.

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jan Same
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:40 pm

toki!
Thanks for your help jan Tepan.

Here's the new version with your suggestions integrated:



(the previous link has been updated too)

What do you think ?

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:25 pm

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.


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