meli lili pi len loje

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
jan Same
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:41 am

meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:07 pm

toki!
I've translated the first part of the little red riding hood of the Grimm brothers.
I'm translating this text: http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stori ... tRed.shtml
But it is a loose translation, and I'm translating it word for word, but just the general meaning.

I didn't realize someone [url]already translated it in the forum[http://forums.tokipona.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2619/url], I'm sorry to have translated the same story.

I still want to post my version (I hope that's okay), translating is a fun exercice and if possible, I want to know if the toki pona I'm using is ok.

Here goes :
----------------------------------

= MELI LILI PI LEN LOJE =

tenpo ijo la,
meli lili li lon. meli lili ni li pona tawa jan ali.
lawa la meli lili li pona mute tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli ona li pana e ali tawa ona.

tenpo pini la, ona li pana e len loje tawa meli lili ona.
meli lili li kepeken len ni la meli lili li kama pona lukin.
tenpo ni la meli lili li wile ala e len sin.
ona li wile e len loje ni taso.
tenpo kama ali la, ona li jo e nimi: “meli lili pi len loje”.

sike suno ante la mama meli pi meli lili li toki e ni:
“jan lili mi o kama! ni li moku.
o pana e moku ni tawa mama mama meli sina.
ona li pilin ike. o pana e moku ni la ona li kama pilin pona.
o tawa!
taso, o tawa mute ala tan ni: moku li anpa la mama mama meli sina li jo ala e moku.
mi wile e ni: sina tawa lili.
insa tomo mama mama sina la o toki e «toki!» tawa ona.”


meli lili li toki: “tenpo kama la mi tawa pona”

mama mama meli pi meli lili li lon ma pi kasi suli.
meli lili li lon open pi ma pi kasi suli.
tenpo ni la soweli li kama.
meli lili li sona ala e ni: ona li ike mute.
meli lili li pilin monsuta ala tan ni.

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje o, toki!”

- “soweli o, ni li pona tawa mi”

- “ona li insa ma pi kasi suli tan seme?”

- “mi tawa mama mama meli mi”

- “insa pi len ona li jo seme ?”

- “ijo moku. tenpo suno weka la mi mute li pali e moku suwi.
mi mute li pali e moku tan ni: mama mama meli mi li pilin ike.”

- “mama mama meli sina li lon seme?”

- “mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.
tomo ona li lon poka pi kasi suli mute pi kili pimeja.
jan ali li sona e ni.”


soweli ike li pilin e ni:
“meli lili li pona lukin, ona li moku pi pona mute tawa mi.
mama mama meli ona li moku pi pona lili tawa mi.
mi wile e ni: moku e meli lili en mama mama meli.”


soweli en meli li tawa. soweli li tawa lon poka e meli lili.
soweli li toki:
“o lukin! kasi kule li pona lukin lon ma pi kasi suli ni.
ken la sina li ken lukin.
a! sina o kute e kalama musi pi waso. kalama ni, li pona mute mute.
sina li tawa mute lon nasin ni. ken la sina li ken tawa kepeken tenpo mute.
sina li ken tawa poka nasin. o weka lon insa pi ma kasi. o lukin e waso en kasi.
mi pilin e ni: ni li kama pona mute tawa ona”


meli lili pi len loje li lawa e oko ona.
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma pi kasi suli.
ona lili li toki:
“ken la, mi ken pana e kasi kule tawa mama mama meli mi.
ken la, ona li pilin e ni: «kasi kule li pona tawa mi!»,
mi jo e tenpo mute, mi ken kepeken e tenpo mute.”


meli lili pi len loje li tawa poka nasin. ona li tawa lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo sama la soweli ike li tawa wawa kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li tawa tomo pi mama mama meli.
ona li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.

mama mama meli li toki: “jan seme li lon?”

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje li lon, mi jo e moku suwi en moku telo! o open e lupa!”

mama mama meli li toki: “a! sina ken open e lupa. mi wawa ala, mi ken ala open e lupa.”

soweli li open e lupa li kama insa. soweli li toki ala li tawa supa lape pi mama mama meli.
ona li moku e ali pi mama mama meli.
tenpo kama la soweli ike li len e len pi mama mama meli li kama insa supa lape.

tenpo sama la meli lili li pilin e ni:
“a ike! mi kepeken e tenpo mute mute a! tenpo ni la mi jo e tenpo ala!
mi tawa tomo mama mama mi!”


--------------------------------
This is only part one,
I thought it would be easier to correct if the text wasn't too long.
Part two will come soon once part one is perfect ;)

So, what do you think? pona ala pona?

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:59 pm

There's also a short version somewhere on the Toki Pona site (where things disappear very thoroughly) and probably some others. It's a good one.
'tempo la' "at some time", usually does for "Once upon a time." I'm not sure what 'ijo' does here "At something's time"?
'lawa la' "chiefly, mainly" etc. Nice, if it issn't taken up by. "according to the law, legally", which it might be.
Pronouns getting a little unclear by the second paragraph. A noun now and a gain helps.
'wawa' has come to mean "fast", so 'o tawa wawa ala' for "Don't run." I don't know what "slow" is.
We're still playing with quotes, so I don't know ow much dropping of 'e ni:' or 'e nimi" you can do. Try what seems good to you and see if it causes problems.
'monsuta' alone means "be afraid", so don't need 'pilin'
'tempo suno pini'
Apparently can't drop subjects, even in 'ni:' clauses, so 'mi wile end: mi moku ...' But you could just sa 'mi wile moku e ...', too.
'pi' meds two words after it (still; there seems to be a rumbling for changing that),so just ''kalama musi waso'.
'pona pi mute mute' (again, a point seemingly in some dispute)
'tawa poka nasin' "go to the side of the road" prob 'weka tan nasin' is clearer "get off the beaten track"
Ah, yes. kepeken tempo lili' is another expression for "fast" and '...mute' for "slow".
'weka lon insa'? "wander around"? Not sure how clear that is.
'tawa sina'?

Going nicely at the first draft level (or rather higher, actually).

jan Same
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:41 am

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:05 pm

Oh! I made less errors than I expected (it's seems I'm starting to learn a a)

Here's the new version:
----------------

tenpo ante la, (in another time...‘Once upon a time’?)
meli lili li lon.
meli lili ni li pona tawa jan ali.
nanpa lawa la meli lili li pona mute tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli ona li pana e ali tawa ona.

tenpo pini la, mama mama meli li pana e len loje tawa meli lili ona.
meli lili li kepeken len ni la meli lili li kama pona lukin.
tenpo ni la meli lili li wile ala e len sin.
meli lili li wile e len loje ni taso.
tenpo kama ali la, ona li jo e nimi: “meli lili pi len loje”.

sike suno ante la mama meli pi meli lili li toki e ni:
“jan lili mi o kama! ni li moku.
o pana e moku ni tawa mama mama meli sina.
ona li pilin ike. o pana e moku ni la ona li kama pilin pona.
o tawa!
taso, o tawa wawa ala tan ni: moku li anpa la mama mama meli sina li jo ala e moku.
mi wile e ni: sina tawa kepeken tenpo mute.
insa tomo mama mama sina la, o toki e «toki!» tawa ona.”

meli lili li toki: “tenpo kama la mi tawa pona”.

mama mama meli pi meli lili li lon ma pi kasi suli.
meli lili li lon open pi ma pi kasi suli.
tenpo ni la, soweli li kama.
meli lili li sona ala e ni: ona li ike mute.
meli lili li monsuta ala tan ni.

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje o, toki!”

- “soweli o, ni li pona tawa mi.”

- “ona li insa ma pi kasi suli tan seme?”

- “mi tawa mama mama meli mi.”

- “insa pi len ona li jo seme ?”

- “ijo moku. tenpo suno pini la mi mute li pali e moku suwi.
mi mute li pali e moku tan ni: mama mama meli mi li pilin ike.”

- “mama mama meli sina li lon seme?”

- “mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.
tomo ona li lon poka pi kasi suli mute pi kili pimeja.
jan ali li sona e ni.”

soweli ike li pilin e ni:
“meli lili li pona lukin, ona li moku pi pona mute tawa mi.
mama mama meli ona li moku pi pona lili tawa mi.
mi wile e ni: mi moku e meli lili en mama mama meli.”

soweli en meli li tawa. soweli li tawa lon poka e meli lili.
soweli li toki:
“o lukin! kasi kule li pona lukin lon ma pi kasi suli ni.
ken la sina li ken lukin.
a! sina o kute e kalama musi waso. kalama ni, li pona mute.
sina li tawa wawa lon nasin ni. ken la sina li ken tawa kepeken tenpo mute.
ken la, sina li ken weka tan nasin. o weka lon ma pi kasi suli. o lukin e waso en kasi.
mi pilin e ni: ni li kama pona mute tawa sina”

meli lili pi len loje li lawa e oko ona.
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma pi kasi suli.
ona lili li toki:
“ken la, mi ken pana e kasi kule tawa mama mama meli mi.
ken la, ona li pilin e ni: «kasi kule li pona tawa mi!»,
mi jo e tenpo mute, mi ken kepeken e tenpo mute.”

meli lili pi len loje li weka tan nasin. ona li tawa lon ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo sama la soweli ike li tawa wawa kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li tawa tomo pi mama mama meli.
ona li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.

mama mama meli li toki: “jan seme li lon?”

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje li lon, mi jo e moku suwi en moku telo! o open e lupa!”

mama mama meli li toki: “a! sina ken open e lupa. mi wawa ala, mi ken ala open e lupa.”

soweli li open e lupa li kama insa. soweli li toki ala li tawa supa lape pi mama mama meli.
ona li moku e ali pi mama mama meli.
tenpo kama la soweli ike li len e len pi mama mama meli li kama insa supa lape.

tenpo sama la meli lili li pilin e ni:
“a ike! mi kepeken e tenpo pi mute mute a! tenpo ni la mi jo e tenpo ala!
mi tawa tomo mama mama mi!”

----------------

instead of lawa la (which could mean ‘according to the law’) ,
I thought of “nanpa lawa la” (the number one thing, more importantly, mainly)
What do you think ? Maybe “ijo nanpa wan la” or “ijo lawa la” instead ?


Any errors ? Or a thing I missed?

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:51 pm

“ona li insa ma pi kasi suli tan seme?” presumably 'sina'
"mi ken kepeken e tenpo mute.” no 'e'
'len e len pi mama mama meli'. I think 'len e x' means "puts clothes on x" not "dresses in x", so 'len e sama kepeken len pi mama...' (or 'len pi mama mama meli e sama).
'mi kepeken e tenpo pi mute mute ' no 'e' again.

No problems really, all but the first are quibbles and the first is the kind of confusion we all get all the time. This is about done, I'd say (until the tomo lipu gang goes to work on it).

jan Same
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:41 am

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:18 pm

Thanks for the corrections,

here's the final text in it's entirety :

----- part 1 -----

tenpo la,
meli lili li lon.
meli lili ni li pona tawa jan ali.
nanpa lawa la meli lili li pona mute tawa mama mama meli ona.
mama mama meli ona li pana e ali tawa ona.

tenpo pini la, mama mama meli li pana e len loje tawa meli lili ona.
meli lili li kepeken len ni la meli lili li kama pona lukin.
tenpo ni la meli lili li wile ala e len sin.
meli lili li wile e len loje ni taso.
tenpo kama ali la, ona li jo e nimi: “meli lili pi len loje”.

sike suno ante la mama meli pi meli lili li toki e ni:
“jan lili mi o kama! ni li moku.
o pana e moku ni tawa mama mama meli sina.
ona li pilin ike. o pana e moku ni la ona li kama pilin pona.
o tawa!
taso, o tawa wawa ala tan ni: moku li anpa la mama mama meli sina li jo ala e moku.
mi wile e ni: sina tawa kepeken tenpo mute.
insa tomo mama mama sina la, o toki e «toki!» tawa ona.”

meli lili li toki: “tenpo kama la mi tawa pona”

mama mama meli pi meli lili li lon ma pi kasi suli.
meli lili li lon open pi ma pi kasi suli.
tenpo ni la, soweli li kama.
meli lili li sona ala e ni: ona li ike mute.
meli lili li monsuta ala tan ni.

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje o, toki!”

- “soweli o, ni li pona tawa mi”

- “sina li insa ma pi kasi suli tan seme?”

- “mi tawa mama mama meli mi”

- “insa pi len ona li jo seme ?”

- “ijo moku. tenpo suno pini la mi mute li pali e moku suwi.
mi mute li pali e moku tan ni: mama mama meli mi li pilin ike.”

- “mama mama meli sina li lon seme?”

- “mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.
tomo ona li lon poka pi kasi suli mute pi kili pimeja.
jan ali li sona e ni.”

soweli ike li pilin e ni:
“meli lili li pona lukin, ona li moku pi pona mute tawa mi.
mama mama meli ona li moku pi pona lili tawa mi.
mi wile e ni: mi moku e meli lili en mama mama meli.”

soweli en meli li tawa. soweli li tawa lon poka e meli lili.
soweli li toki:
“o lukin! kasi kule li pona lukin lon ma pi kasi suli ni.
ken la sina li ken lukin.
a! sina o kute e kalama musi waso. kalama ni, li pona mute.
sina li tawa wawa lon nasin ni. ken la sina li ken tawa kepeken tenpo mute.
ken la, sina li ken weka tan nasin. o weka lon ma pi kasi suli. o lukin e waso en kasi.
mi pilin e ni: ni li kama pona mute tawa sina”

meli lili pi len loje li lawa e oko ona.
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma pi kasi suli.
ona lili li toki:
“ken la, mi ken pana e kasi kule tawa mama mama meli mi.
ken la, ona li pilin e ni: «kasi kule li pona tawa mi!»,
mi jo e tenpo mute, mi ken kepeken tenpo mute.”

meli lili pi len loje li weka tan nasin. ona li tawa lon ma pi kasi suli.

tenpo sama la soweli ike li tawa wawa kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li tawa tomo pi mama mama meli.
ona li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.

mama mama meli li toki: “jan seme li lon?”

soweli li toki: “meli lili pi len loje li lon, mi jo e moku suwi en moku telo! o open e lupa!”

mama mama meli li toki: “a! sina ken open e lupa. mi wawa ala, mi ken ala open e lupa.”

soweli li open e lupa li kama insa. soweli li toki ala li tawa supa lape pi mama mama meli.
ona li moku e ali pi mama mama meli.
tenpo kama la soweli ike li len pi mama mama meli e sama li kama insa supa lape.

tenpo sama la meli lili li pilin e ni:
“a ike! mi kepeken tenpo pi mute mute a! tenpo ni la mi jo e tenpo ala!
mi tawa tomo mama mama mi!”

----- part 2 -----

meli lili li kama lon sinpin pi tomo pi mama mama meli ona.
tenpo ni la, lupa li open. tan ni la, oko pi meli lili li open mute.
meli lili li kama insa tomo li pilin nasa li toki:
“tenpo ante la lon poka mama mama mi la mi pilin pona. taso, tenpo ni la mi pilin nasa mute.”
meli lili li toki: “toki!” taso, jan ala li toki tawa ona.
tan ni la, meli lili li tawa supa lape.
lon ni la, mama mama meli pi meli lili li lape. lawa ona li lon anpa len. ona li nasa lukin mute.

meli lili li toki: “a! mama mama o! sina li jo e nena kute suli suli!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken kute pona e sina”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e oko suli suli!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken lukin pona e sina”

meli lili li toki: “taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e luka suli suli!”

ona li toki: “kepeken ni la mi ken selo e sina”

meli lili li toki: “a! taso, mama mama o! sina li jo e uta suli suli!”

ona li toki: “a! kepeken ni la mi ken moku pona e sina!”

soweli li toki e ni la, ona li kama wawa tan supa lape. ona li moku e meli lili ali.

tenpo moku pini la sina li kama lon supa lape li lape. soweli li lape la ona li kalama lape mute.

tenpo sama la, jan alasa li kama poka tomo.
jan alasa li pilin e ni: “meli pi tomo ni li kalama mute. ken la, sina wile e ijo”.
jan alasa li kama insa tomo. ona li kama lukin e soweli lon insa supa lape.

jan alasa li toki: “a! soweli ike o! sina li lon ni tan seme a?! lon tenpo mute la mi wile moli e sina!”
jan alasa li wile kepeken e ilo moli tawa soweli. taso, ona li kama pilin e ni: ken la, mama mama meli li lon insa soweli. ken la, lon tenpo ni la, mama mama li moli ala.
tan ni la, ona li kepeken ala e ilo moli. ona li kepeken ilo kipisi.
ona li kipisi e sijelo pi soweli lape.

insa pi soweli ike li kama tu la, jan alasa li lukin e meli lili pi len loje.
ona li kama tan sijelo pi soweli ike. meli lili li toki: “a! mi monsuta mute! soweli insa li pimeja mute!”
mama mama meli li kama kin.
tenpo kama la, meli lili li alasa e kiwen mute mute. ona li pana e kiwen lon insa pi soweli ike.
oko pi soweli ike li kama open la ona li wile tawa wawa. taso, kiwen pi insa ona li mute mute.
ona li ken ala tawa li kama moli.

soweli li moli la, meli lili en mama mama meli en jan alasa li kama pilin pona.

jan alasa li kipisi li kama jo e selo soweli. jan alasa li pana e selo soweli tawa tomo ona.
mama mama li moku e moku suwi e telo pi meli lili.
meli lili pi len loje li pilin e ni:
“tenpo kama ali la mi awen lon nasin pi ma pi kasi suli.
lon tenpo ali kama la, mi weka ala tan nasin.
mama mi li toki e lawa la mi weka ala tan nasin lawa ona.”

tenpo ante la, meli lili li pana kin e moku tawa mama mama ona.
meli lili pi len loje li tawa lon nasin sama.
soweli ike ante li lon nasin ni kin. soweli sin ni, li wile ike.
taso, meli lili pi len loje li sona pona.
meli lili li tawa wawa li lukin ala e soweli ike.

lon tomo pi mama mama sina la, meli lili li toki pi soweli ike sin tawa mama mama meli sina.
mama mama meli li toki: “a, o pake e supa lupa pi tomo mi. mi wile ala e ni: soweli ike li kama insa.”
tenpo kama la, soweli li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.
soweli ike li toki: “o open! mi meli lili pi len loje! mi pana e moku suwi!
taso meli lili en mama mama meli li toki ala.

tan ni la, soweli li sike e tomo li kama lon lawa tomo.
ona li wile awen e tenpo pimeja.
lon tenpo pimeja la meli lili li kama tan tomo la soweli li moku e ona.
taso, mama mama meli li sona e ni.

lon sinpin tomo la lupa kiwen suli li lon.
mama mama meli li toki:
“tenpo suno pini la mi pali e moku kepeken telo seli.
meli lili o, pana e telo seli pi moku mi, kepeken poki lili tawa lupa kiwen suli.”

meli lili pi len loje li pana e telo seli tawa lupa kiwen suli.
lupa kiwen suli li kama jo e telo mute.
kon pi telo seli li sama moku pi tenpo suno pini.

soweli ike li pilin e kon, ona li kama tawa lupa kiwen suli.
soweli ike li lukin e insa pi lupa kiwen suli.
lawa pi soweli ike li tawa anpa. taso, noka ona li ken ala awen lon open pi lupa kiwen suli.

soweli ike li tawa anpa wawa li kama insa telo mute.
soweli ike li moli lon telo.

tan ni la, meli lili pi len loje li pilin pona li tawa tomo ona.

tan ni la, tenpo ali la, ike li kama ala tawa meli lili pi len loje.

-------------

I'm sure there are still a lot of errors, I hope I haven't made too much though.
I made a few stylistic choices, like “suli suli”.
(It's supposed to be a children's story after all, and I find that reduplication has this fun “child” like effect)
But if my “stylistic choices” are too far out, please tell me.

What do you think? ni li pona ala pona? :)

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:12 pm

'suli suli' is slightly controversial, but "childish" is a good excuse for it. The question for me is always whether it need 'pi' or not, but, in the context of childishness, there is a lot to be said for the "not" side. On the other hand, children to generalize rules pretty well, so maybe not.
'selo' for "embrace", I suppose. 'luka' is standard but gets a little messy. here (although we already have repeated 'kute'
presumably ona went to sleep, not sina.
'kama lon poka tomo', ditto 'insa'
'kama lukin e soweli lon insa supa lape.' I think the easiest solution is to move 'lape' to right after 'soweli' and you probably don't need 'insa' since 'lon' means "on" (I'm going to skip over the issue of whether the finding was on the bed or the wolf was on the bed when found; I just don't know how that plays out in tp. Your tex has the wold o the bed when found, but needs 'pi' before 'lon'. As I say, the easiest solution ...)
just 'tempo suli'. "for a long time": The lon get dropped for 'la' phrases and 'suli' is for duration, 'mute' for repetitions "tempo mute'. "many time, often" -- which might fit here, too.). Similarly for 'lon tempo ni'
Not sure 'tawa' is the right preposition for who get the ax but it seems to work OK and I don't know of another off hand.
don't need 'e' with 'kepeken' even after 'ala'.
Note that 'mute mute' is not the same structure of 'suli suli', but just the ordinary adjective + adverb "very many". It is probably the source of the others, though, since they have the same sort of meaning.
'(lon) tenpo ali'
'toki pi soweli sin' strictly works at some level, but 'toki e ijo pi soweli sin' is clear and generally safer.
nice use of 'pake'. 'kama lon insa'
Need something to throw this into the subjunctive, as it were. Otherwise it reads "At night, when the girl came from the house, he ate her", which makes here later running errands a bit puzzling until we garden path back. Put this after "ona li pilin e ni: or some such devise (or 'ona li wile e ni:').
'meli lili o, o pana'. or just 'meli lili o pana' (no comma)
'kepeken poki lili tawa lupa kiwen suli.” 'pi' before 'tawa' and probably 'lon' instead of 'tawa'

Thanks, Gebru"der Grimm, I don't remember that ending, but it's a beauty! And nicely translated, too. Just a little tidying needed. Thanks.

jan_Lope
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Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan_Lope » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:24 am

jan Same wrote:meli lili li lon open pi ma pi kasi suli.
...
“mama mama meli mi li lon insa pi ma pi kasi suli.
...
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule pi ma pi kasi suli.
...
ona li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.
----- part 2 -----
...
meli lili li kama lon sinpin pi tomo pi mama mama meli ona.
...
“tenpo kama ali la mi awen lon nasin pi ma pi kasi suli.
...
tenpo kama la, soweli li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo pi mama mama meli.


toki!

After "pi" have to be at least two words. The word immediately after "pi" is a noun or pronoun, followed by an adjective. Please see the official Toki Pona book ("pu") or here:
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona ... 0000000000
pona!
jan Lope
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/ (Lessons)
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/dcg/ (Prolog and DCG)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of spamming.

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:11 am

Yeah, well, Lope is a very conservative poner and a strict one (everything not to his standard -- and he has a parsers to enforce it-- is "slang"). He is right that both Pije and pu use the rule he cites. They, of course, violate it within a page of citing it (and Lope does , too, iirc) and they then. try , with increasing implausibility, to cover the gap (after all, in tp, any pair of words can be taken as a noun and an adjective, it's just that most don't make much sense that way). A strict adherence to the rules does have the advantage of doing away with long 'pi' strings, which are admittedly ugly. But often handy to avoid a bunch of sentences to say a relatively simple thing. Community standards have gone beyond this narrow rule to a simpler, more precise, one. Btw, if you agree with this latest claim, you are a "sock puppet" according to Lope. (He is strict on other things, too, but seems especially down on 'pi'.)

jan Same
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:41 am

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:48 pm

jan Lope o toki!
I tried to modify the “pi sequence” without the double “pi”:

--------------
meli lili li lon open ma pi kasi suli.
...
“mama mama meli mi li lon insa ma pi kasi suli.
...
ona li lukin e suno lon kasi e waso e kule. ali li pona lukin lon ma pi kasi suli.
...
ona li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo mama mama meli.
----- part 2 -----
...
meli lili li kama lon sinpin tomo pi mama mama meli ona.
...
“tenpo kama ali la mi awen lon nasin ma pi kasi suli.
...
tenpo kama la, soweli li kalama e supa lupa pi tomo mama mama meli.

--------------
I find that these correction are making things a lot less clearer than they were before (or maybe I'm not doing this the right way?)
It's true that I've had a bad habit of nesting pi's.

I want this text to be for people learning toki pona, so if possible I want it to be the most grammatical correct.
(I'm also going to change the “suli suli” to “pi suli mute”.)

What do you think?

janKipo
Posts: 2744
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:04 pm

Oh, don't give into Lope if it screws things up.
'open' is a nouns, so you need 'pi ma' to attach the genitive noun, which has a adjective (modifier, anyhow) in 'pi kasi suli', similarly for 'insa'
and, of course, 'tomo pi mama mama meli' is just the case for which 'pi' was invented and fits even Lope's rules. 'supa luna' is iffy but probably ok.
again, 'sinpin' is a noun and so need the genitive construction (unless Lope has been so unconservative as to make 'lon sinpin', etc. into complex prepositions. That is a possible move (just short of dropping the 'lon) but. everybody else has resisted it so far (and I suspect Lope really has, too). I doubt 'lon nasin' has been upgraded in any case, so everyone would want a 'pi' there.
and 'tomo' again.

The best way to get rid of p\'pi' chains, if you really don't like them, or if they get too confusing (as they easily can) is to rewrite things back to the simple sentences the chains come from and then find better ways to combine them -- or leave them simple, if wordy.

Better to learn it right (pace Lope) than be like too many people who keep trying to use the pu rules even when they clearly don't work, and fairly regularly screw up, sometimes humorously, sometimes disastrously. 'pi' corrections are the most common ones I do, I think, and almost none of them represent more than mislearning the wrong lesson.


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