meli lili pi len loje

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
Posts: 2826
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janKipo » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:02 am

For most of your suggestions, while I agree they are safer, I think that context is enough to get us through the ambiguity.

The quotes on "2017" are standard for nontpized names.

The two standard transitive from nouns is another case where context is needed. one that the applicative use is about as old as the causative ('telo e' for "wash", say, is actually older than for "melt", as. far as I can find records). 'moku' is a bad case to use, since it is a transitive verb, not a noun (the noun the genus of the DO, another regularity) and "of course", "eat" just is "cause something to be food".

'sama' is the reflexive pronoun, picking up the subject. 'ona' is less literary, 'ona sama' merely obscure.

Same is in flux about commas before terminal PPs. My feeling is that they should be used when needed but generally omitted (of course, the the trick is to notice when one is needed). They break up reading a lot, often for no purpose. So,generally, I approve of getting rid of commas (even the ones Lope requires).

'ni la' is not yet thoroughly established, though clearly grammatical. 'lon ni' is marginally clearer, but 'lon' is rare in 'la' phases (because it is dropped in coming from a terminal PP).

The 'lukin'/'oko' issue hasn't quite settled. No one uses 'oko' as a verb, but many (most?) keep it as the word for "eye"). Shifting to 'lukin' for "eye" would encourage 'kute' for "ear". Keeping 'nana kute' for "ear" encourages either 'oko' or 'sike lukin' for "eye". All in flux, but presumably all understood more or less well.

Yeah, I wonder a bit about 'ali' with people being eaten "ate her all up" or maybe "swallowed her whole" (as the later events suggest). There is also 'moku ali e' which may mean something in this area. "swallowed her whole" seems to be 'moku e ona Ali' as opposed to just "ate all of her" 'moku e ali ona'. I'm not sure where 'moku ali e ona' fits in.

'tu' is more vivid than 'kipisi' here, "divided" rather than merely "cut"

'kama lape ala' is just standard, 'tan lape' is not.

'insa' is a noun, so it needs some hook here (if I am looking at the right place).

'lawa' = "rule, direction" etc. seems appropriate.

'pake' is stronger than "not open" but is rather "bar, block, barricade"

'awen' means (among other things, of course) "wait for" so 'awen e tempo pimeja' makes sense.

I find the 'la' without 'lon' less clear in the 'lon sinpin tomo la' case. In flux, I suspect.

Commas were used for terminal PPs because it seems the least intrusive punctuation mark. This turns out not to be the case, alas. Or, at least, it is annoyingly intrusive, though the others seem worse. I think always using it is the heart of the problem.

side from 'pake', which is a little obscure, the other words are pretty well entrenched in the community and can be used without problems, however unofficial they are (remembering always that there is really no such thing as official in tp). They also have, in the community, developed meanings that are quite distinct from Sonja's suggested replacements.

jan Same
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:41 am

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby jan Same » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:54 pm

toki!

Here's a new version with a mix of your suggestions.
I got rid of the commas before the PP, I know it made things clearer, but it really messed the ‘flow’ up.

Thanks you all for your help and suggestions, I hope you'll like the new version:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1SLo ... V9idFhKV2c

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janTepanNetaPelin
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:14 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: meli lili pi len loje

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:19 pm

jan Same wrote:I got rid of the commas before the PP, I know it made things clearer, but it really messed the ‘flow’ up.


Great. :)
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona


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