passive and active voice inside the phrases

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
jan Andrei Nikolaew
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:18 am

passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby jan Andrei Nikolaew » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:52 pm

I guess the topic is 15 years old, but still. How do i (or can i) mark the difference:

jan moli - killer vs dead man
jan pakala - torturer vs tortue victim
jan kule - painter vs bodyart model
jan lukin - scout vs model
soweli moku - eating animal vs edible animal
soweli alasa - hunter vs prey

I guess 'li' could make it obvious:
jan li kule - the one that paints
jan kule - the painted man.
But then how do i use 'jan li kule' as a target?

janKipo
Posts: 2754
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:28 pm

The short answer is "You can't". The usual answer is "Context will decide" (but it often doesn't)
As long as you are working with noun phrases, the task is pretty much hopeless because most relevant information gets lost in constructing noun phrases from sentences. Not that matters are a lot better with sentences: 'jan li kule' can mean "the man is colorful/colored" just as well as "The man colors/paints". For the most part sentences with objects are the clearest 'jan li kule e sama' "The man pained himself" vs. 'jan li kule e sitelen" "the man painted a picture"
In grammatical reconstructions of difficult passages, going back all the way to basic sentences like this, with 'jan ni' in place of the puzzling piece, clarifies the issue -- although doesn't say what the right reading is. And, of course, context does help. if there is a lot of it.
Bringing over from the underlying sentences more information also helps. A murderer is 'jan pi moli jan', for example (although, at a more remote level, that could be a murder victim - you basically can't get guaranteed disambiguation). A painter could fairly safely be 'jan pi kule sitelen' (and again, the demon says "or a man who got all smeared over when a painting fell on him" Remote, as i said.)
To be fair, the same demon can work up problems with the most innocent English sentences -- but it is a lot easier with tp.

jan_Lope
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:30 pm
Location: mi lon ma tomo Pelin.
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Re: passive and active voice inside the phrases

Postby jan_Lope » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:17 am

jan Andrei Nikolaew wrote:I guess the topic is 15 years old, but still. How do i (or can i) mark the difference:

jan moli - killer vs dead man
jan pakala - torturer vs tortue victim
jan kule - painter vs bodyart model
jan lukin - scout vs model
soweli moku - eating animal vs edible animal
soweli alasa - hunter vs prey

I guess 'li' could make it obvious:
jan li kule - the one that paints
jan kule - the painted man.
But then how do i use 'jan li kule' as a target?


toki!
It is better to use complete sentences to make it more clear. For transitive verbs use "e" and a direct object. For adjectives you have to describe a bit more.

jan li moli e jan mute. / tenpo pini la jan li kama moli.
jan li pakala e jan ante. / jan li pilin ike. sijelo pi jan ni li pakala.
jan li kule e sitelen mute. / jan li pona lukin. jan ante li kule e sitelen mute, kepeken lukin ona.
soweli li moku e moku. / mi moku e soweli moku.
ona li alasa e soweli. / ken la tenpo kama la soweli alasa li kama moli li kama moku.
pona!
jan Lope
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/ (Lessons)
http://rowa.giso.de/languages/toki-pona/dcg/ (Prolog and DCG)

On my foe list are the sockpuppets janKipo and janSilipu because of spamming.


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