len lawa loje

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janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:53 pm

Well, I'm not sure about a difference between deceiving and cheating, aside from a matter of profit, which is clear in the case of cheating, but not so much in deceiving. Turning a blind eye to and ignoring seem to be quite different, however, since they are more passive and less active. Ignoring a fact is different from making one one up, though it may also be a form of deception. This looks to be very tangled space on a semantic map and I am not sure how to untangle it. It does raise the tp questions about how to say "ignore" as well as the other questions already raised. Playing with 'oko' is probably a calque from English, though 'pini e oko' "finish an eye" doesn't sound familiar 'like say, 'sike weka e oko' "turn away an eye" which is, of course, a real calque. 'mi nasa e sama' is just "I drive myself crazy" which is probably going too far.

janpona120
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janpona120 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:18 am

I can't tell the difference of "cheat myself" and "deceive myself"
I see here two key words:
  • "simulate" (imitate a super-hero, without internal chainging) -- yin energy
  • "stimulate" (provoke to become a super-hero, with internal changing) -- yang energy
soweli Lupo was imitating "mama mama meli". It was not trying to become the grandma, only imitation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
imitation -- musi (play a role)
a mask -- lukin sama ante

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:26 am

prob 'lukin pi sama ante' as a noun
not sure about the parallelism or the association with yin and yang, but Lupo is surely merely pretending not trying to change (cf. transvestites and transgenders).

janpona120
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janpona120 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:19 pm

prob 'lukin pi sama ante' as a noun
I quess, in a templet "pi X Y" -- X is a noun, Y is an adjective. So, "sama" is a noun -- a copy, and "ante" is an adjective. Together these words have a meaning: "an unlike copy", "not similar to copy". I would like to swap their order: "ante sama" -- similar to some different. In my understanding, a mask is a copy of some other.
not sure about the parallelism or the association with yin and yang
"yin-yang" are a universal concept, existing in any dichotomy automatically. In this dichotomy "simulation-stimulation" here is its presence, too.

jan Pina
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:12 pm

soweli li pali lukin pi sama pi mama mama.
anu
soweli li pali lukin pona. ona li ike kin.
kulupu nimi ni li pona tawa mi.

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:54 pm

well, except that in 'lukin pi sama ante', 'sama' is a preposition and 'ante' a noun. so "appearance like something else". I suppose you could make cases for other constructions. but they mainly seem far-fetched to me.

'pali e lukin pi sama mama mama' ('sama' is still a preposition)
How do you construe 'pali lukin' here if not verb and object? It's not modal+verb nor adj + verb
maybe 'pali pona lukin' "try to look good"

jan Pina
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:40 pm

jan Pona120 anu jan Kipo O!
mi li pini e toki pi jan Len Lawa Loje Lili.
o lukin e lipu tu.
o pona e toki ni.

I've added a "morale finale" part as it is in Charles Perrault story.
Or at least as close as possible to it. :)

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:04 pm

'mi kute e toki jan' “I heard someone's story” or so. Don't see how this fits in; just a disclaimer to direct knowledge? But that is assumed in tales.
'mama mama li pilin pona ala pona?'
'taso jan pali kasi li lon ma ni.' violates the “Gun in in One” rule, since mentioned early on but nothing comes of it.
'soweli li moku ala e jan LojeLili'
'monsuta pilin e soweli' I think 'monsuta e' is enough, since fear is a feeling.
'poka tawa ma'
'tomo wan' maybe 'tomo taso' “isolated house”?
'lon poka pi tomo pi mama mama' maybe pooh-bah, maybe violation of Gun in One. Does a neighboring mill suggest isolation?\\
'nasin tu ni li pona'
better 'kama lon tomo' but usage is loose.
'LojeLili o kama'
'tenpo pi lili lili' (but disputed)
'tenpo suno pini tu wan la' I just don't know. I assume you mean “for three days” rather than “three days ago” and one of these is surely what you have and the other is 'tenpo suno tu wan pini' but I am not sure which is which – usage is unsettled, to say the least.
'LojeLili o kama' again.
'pilin monsuta' again 'monsuta' is probably enough
'mi toki e soweli ike anu mi toki e jan kin. ' prob 'mi toki e ijo pi soweli ike anu mi toki e ijo pi jan kin' “I am talking about animals and people too,” (I would have collapsed to 'e soweli anu jan kin')
'lukin pi sama' probably (it's the appearance, not the making that is like a friend)
or 'tomo pi jan lili'?

jan Pina
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:41 pm

janKipo wrote:'mi kute e toki jan' “I heard someone's story” or so. Don't see how this fits in; just a disclaimer to direct knowledge? But that is assumed in tales.
'mama mama li pilin pona ala pona?'
fixed
janKipo wrote:'taso jan pali kasi li lon ma ni.' violates the “Gun in in One” rule, since mentioned early on but nothing comes of it.
It is as it in a Perult version. (see source link.) They have done their mission by preventing the wolf from immidiate jan LojeLili consumption. :)
janKipo wrote:'monsuta pilin e soweli' I think 'monsuta e' is enough, since fear is a feeling.
sure but "кашу маслом не испортишь" it helps to avoid an ambiguity like "she didn't make a wolf scared" :)
janKipo wrote:
'tomo wan' maybe 'tomo taso' “isolated house”?
'lon poka pi tomo pi mama mama' maybe pooh-bah, maybe violation of Gun in One. Does a neighboring mill suggest isolation?\\

nope. I mean - 'it is a first house at the village edge by the mill."
janKipo wrote:better 'kama lon tomo' but usage is loose.

i like it better 'insa tomo'.
janKipo wrote:'tenpo suno pini tu wan la' I just don't know. I assume you mean “for three days” rather than “three days ago” and one of these is surely what you have and the other is 'tenpo suno tu wan pini' but I am not sure which is which – usage is unsettled, to say the least.

It is a good notion about past time. Actually wolf is still hungry (which is present) so we may say "tenpo suno tu wan la..."
[/quote]

Actually it is very loose translation of "morale finale" If you can bring some ideas how to make it better it would be great. Here is a quote from the source.
Moral

From this story one learns that children,

Especially young lasses,

Pretty, courteous and well-bred,

Do very wrong to listen to strangers,

And it is not an unheard thing

If the Wolf is thereby provided with his dinner.

I say Wolf, for all wolves

Are not of the same sort;

There is one kind with an amenable disposition

Neither noisy, nor hateful, nor angry,

But tame, obliging and gentle,

Following the young maids

In the streets, even into their homes.

Alas! Who does not know that these gentle wolves

Are of all such creatures the most dangerous!

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:14 pm

<< janKipo wrote:
'monsuta pilin e soweli' I think 'monsuta e' is enough, since fear is a feeling.

sure but "кашу маслом не испортишь" it helps to avoid an ambiguity like "she didn't make a wolf scared" >>
I just don't think that is a possible reading of ' ona li monsuta e soweli' but I admit that is contentious.

'tomo nanpa wan pi poka pi ma tomo lili pi lon poka pi [mill]'

comment was about 'kama tawa tomo' not 'kama lon insa tomo'

nice "on three days" covers it.

I'll work on the morale.


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